FURTHER DISCUSSION TEACHER OF CHRISTIAN TEACHERS CONTINUED.......

M. J. Young.......It is evident that you misunderstood my example of Mr. Obama. I did not
> mean that you must believe whatever you hear; I meant that if you think
> you know that he is President of the United States, you are mistaken--it
> is something you believe because you were told by someone, and not
> something you know.

Ozay wrote........Yes it is true what you say, I have to 'BELIEVE' if I am caught in a discussion about Obama, because the world I live in everyone has created this same belief, it is a world of creations, yet creations come from where? Answer, everything comes from the void 'NOTHING' that is the truth I KNOW, I have experienced it. But because I have to play this game of life with those who also 'BELIEVE' that Obama exists, those who cannot live outside of belief and disbelief, yet this does not mean that I cannot define the difference between "KNOWING" Obama exists, and merely having a 'BELIEF' given by others that he exists, I have the ability to be able to define with high reasoning between what "I CAN KNOW AS TRUTH AND WHAT i CANNOT KNOW AS TRUTH" and I have to ACCEPT what I can "KNOW" and what I 'CANNOT KNOW' and I will say an evolved soul will not accept any 'belief' over "knowing truth" where his life does not depend on it and those of his fellow human beings, an evolved soul will leave belief and have nothing, if that is what it leaves him with, and he will then see that "NOTHING IS THE TRUTH" AND THIS NOTHING HE CAN SAY HE "KNOWS" We have a soap series in England and people talk about the last episode and all the characters in that soap, though I can talk about that soap as if it is real, with others 'BELIEF' it does not mean that it has any reality to a seeker of truth, as I AM, therefore it has no meaning to me in any way about truth, yet my old sister in law she was not the sharpest tool in the tool set, she would talk about Eastenders as if East enders were actually happening in life, as if it were a truth and not just a belief, she would spend every day in front of the TV getting lost in this illusion and even bringing this illusion to life in her own life as a form of belief, by talking about it as if it were real, of course we are not ignorant we listen patiently, but I tell you an evolved soul has the ability to define what is "truth" and what is and 'belief' cannot be accepted as truth, though a whole screen play in life can be created from a common illusion that everyone shares who watches Eastenders and Coronation Street and Obama.
But yet if some one like Jesus says: Come listen to this truth, and here is the way you can find that truth, and "KNOW" and it is inside, because prayer and meditation are inside and in there you will find this and you will find that, then If I follow the way and I find what he has pointed out is true then I can say "TRULY I KNOW" If I cannot identify it in myself then I cannot know. If some one says 'BELIEVE ME' only, then I cannot "KNOW" anything. AND I SAY WHAT WORTH IS BELIEF?
In a court of law a criminal is given a trial and evidence is used for his case and against his case, if the evidence weighs against his case then he will be found guilty, and if the sentence is death by electric chair then the judge will convict him, the jury 'BELIEVES' he is guilty, and he is sentenced to death. Now it has been found that in some of these convictions new evidence comes up and then it is 'BELIEVED' that the convict is innocent, but it is TOO LATE, he has already been sent to the electric chair and EXECUTED, that is the problem of belief and not "KNOWING" if the jury were witnesses directly to the crime then they would 'KNOW' but if not, then they can only 'believe', which leaves in question the whole foundation of trial by jury and the death sentence, in this situation there is too much at stake, his life, as there is too much at stake when one believes there is a heaven in the sky and not in the self. But so that society can stay safe we have to lock him away until we can hopefully "KNOW" for sure that he is safe to let out on the street, but in any situation like this nothing can be called "KNOWING" only evidence can say guilt or not guilty, all this is only outside of the self that you cannot "KNOW", what we have been discussing is that which can be found in all selves as Jesus found and as Jesus taught we can find in ourselves therefore this we can "KNOW" HOLY SPIRIT.
Still though I paint this out to you in simplistic words you still are blocked, that block is because belief stands in the way. And it is I who understands you, but you cannot understand me because of the block of your ego mind identity and intelligence, therefore your motivation for this discourse comes from the wrong place, it is rather to protect than to "KNOW", the truth threatens everything you 'BELIEVE' and everything you 'THINK' you are and have been in your life, all your values everything, but I tell you this will make you firmer in faith if you could only let go and ask instead of tell, your arrogance your vanity all stand in the way of this small task, your pride in what you 'BELIEVE' THIS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL THIS BLINDNESS OF HUMANITY, my church I offer to you is not the church of Peter that is dyeing a death, but my Church is the Church of G O D and my path was the path of JUDAS, THOMAS, JOHN, MARY AND SIMON PETER, remember my PATH.


M. J. Young.......My point was that most of the things most people
> would say they know are really beliefs, information they have accepted
> as if it were knowledge based on evidence and their trust of those who
> told them. Thus belief and knowledge are so nearly the same thing that
> the words are almost interchangeable.

Ozay wrote.......Then we come back to where we started this discourse, we spoke in the beginning of subjective and objective truth, and what I said was that nothing can be OBJECTIVE truth, because everything is filtered through our senses and sense perception, and all this is filtered and interpreted by the mind, the mind has been proven over and over as a subjective device, for instance the cat brought up in an environment where it is only given horizontal lines for his visual perception, after a certain time of this the cat was introduced to the 'real' world, the cat could see very little only those horizontal lines. Then there those experiments of hypnosis where people can see and feel non existent things through the power of belief, people could be made to feel pain where there was nothing that could cause pain, people could with stand pain as if it did not exist. SO YOU SEE THE TRUTH IS EVERYTHING I THINK I AM CANNOT BE REALITY, AND THAT IS A TRUTH I CAN KNOW. And another truth I can know is that the power of my belief can make all kinds of miracles happen, and that the power of this unchecked belief can cause all kinds of demonic things to happen also, as which has been happening throughout human history especially during the time of Christianity.


>
M. J. Young....... It is also clear that you do not understand what Descartes meant.

Ozay wrote.......Well I never read Descartes I only used one sentence and that was "I think and therefore I am" which I went into detail explaining to you the untruth and the truth, but still though a child could understand you do not....ego identity is a block, discredit the truth I speak or me in any way and the ego wins back its self esteem, that is the name of your game and you cannot see it.

>
M. J. Young....... You wrote, "My aim is to debate and for you to come to the truth, and
> the way I do this debate is to way lay your demons by pointing them out,
> therefore what I do is reveal the truth, that is NOT ARGUMENT,"

Ozay wrote.......No it is not an argument from this end, from your end that is about your ability or inability to control your lower nature.


M. J. Young.......Ah, but truth is always argument: it is argument from reality. This
> again demonstrates my point, that you do not understand the words I am
> using. Debate is a synonym for argument, except that technically
> "debate" means "an exchange of arguments".

Ozay wrote.......Now for me the definition of the word : "ARGUMENT" is some thing more closer to quarrelsome where it is a matter of who has the loudest mouth and who can dominate who and control, this is a common understanding, however I have just checked Oxford dictionary and it states that it can be understood as: Logical reasoning. Which to me is fine, so we have pinpointed where we have misunderstood, and on that point we both stand corrected, more so me for not checking what else it could of meant, thank you for that pointer. And now it is good that you do not argue with me but rather reason and come to good discussion here where we both use control over the lower nature that is the ego, otherwise it is the argument of lower nature which was my understanding of argument where there is no self control or self discipline.


>
M. J. Young....... You asked, "Jesus was the Son of God how long after his death was
> everything written down? quite some time I gather."
>
> I suppose that depends on what you mean by "quite some time".
>
> We have good evidence that Matthew's Gospel was written less than twenty
> years after Jesus' death.

Ozay wrote.......Now if some one were to ask you to write down points of this discussion in 20 years time how accurate do you think you would be? Often when there is some one who is quoting directly to a secratary even here the secretary will make mistakes, and that the person is actually there those mistakes can be put correct when the secretary reads what she has written to the original source, but when it is written 20 years after, how accurate do you think it can be? I don't think you have a valid point at all, if anything your point backs my point, that is misinterpretation, and I have recognised some of those in the Bible.


>
M. J. Young....... We have good evidence that Matthew relied on Mark's Gospel in writing
> his own, and that he also relied on a collection of other documents we
> have called "Q", short accounts of individual stories and teachings of
> Jesus that were preserved by the believing community.

Ozay wrote.......So you would rather rely on this, that is fine because as I said there is enough information in the Bible to help you find the "TRUTH" but you have to go there yourself to "KNOW" Simple how many more times do I need to say this, what is blocking you from hearing? Though they listen they cannot hear me..........Remember? But I also tell you that there are errors and you will "KNOW" these errors as I do when you have made that journey yourself, and you will also understand why those errors were put there as I know, and as Jesus himself would know if he were here reading the Bible himself and all those who quoted him, it is common that what is said now and then past on will not be what was meant to be conveyed, after 20 years, waww! that is worse than I thought, you are intelligent and you cannot see this why? and what blocks you? Do I need to tell you again?


>
M. J. Young....... It is also clear that Matthew and Mark were both eyewitnesses of Jesus'
> life. The same is true of James, Peter, and Jude--and while John's
> works may have been written more than half a century after Jesus' death,
> they were written by the same John who sat beside Jesus at the dinner
> table that last night, who stood at the foot of the cross as He died,
> and who visited his empty tomb as one of the first to have done so. As
> to Paul, he only met Jesus once, and that perhaps as much as a decade
> after Jesus had died (although probably not so late as that).

Ozay wrote.......You cannot prove anything is the "TRUTH" in any of these writings a theory will be thought out then an experiment will be carried out, then theory is either accepted or not, if accepted then it needs to be carried out again and if proven true again we can conclude the theory is acceptable because significant evidence was given, as an individual who can only go inside yourself then it is you who proves to you or disproves to you or just calls the experiment a failure and try again, in this idea, few except the Saints have actually recreated the experiment, but if the Saints information is written down still you cannot know yourself for sure until you yourself carry out that experiment and then come to know, until you can identify it in yourself, and not through brain washing into 'BELIEVING' you are born again, or you have seen the light, psychologists will tell you that much of this phenomena is an ordinary euphoric state brought on by certain actions that are not conducive to truly "KNOWING" through direct experience what god is and what Jesus and all the apostles were trying to convey yes many Saints came from this religion, but there are few or none today and you are not one of those Saints, you are a scholar, nothing else. I have been there and I "KNOW" that is that, take it or leave it at your own peril waste your life forever in argument and only coming to 'BELIEF' or get out and do it.



TM. J. Young.......To clarify the confusion, in the late eighteenth and nineteenth
> centuries, educated people wanted to believe that God would never work
> miracles or tamper with the natural order. They therefore argued that
> the accounts of the miraculous in the Bible must be false. How, though,
> could they be false if they were written by eyewitnesses? The answer
> given was that they were not; they were written a few hundred years
> later by people who wanted these miraculous stories that had grown up as
> a mythology around their teacher to be true. At that time, the earliest
> copies of the New Testament came from the fifth century, and we were not
> so scientifically capable at that point to be certain they were as old
> as that. So intelligent educated men asserted without evidence that the
> books of the Bible were all written later by people who pretended to be
> the original authors, with only a few of the letters excepted.


Ozay wrote.....That makes the source of the Bible even more suspect, yet I can tell you that when you do it correctly just like those Saints I do know that miracles happen I have identified those miracles myself, so on the back of those miracles you know there is some thing exceptional about the way Jesus has proclaimed this path and this means there is enough good information left for those Saints to grasp the meaning of it all, but for many that is not so.


>M. J. Young.......Since then we have demonstrated the early dates of the copies we had,
> found copies that are earlier, and found fragments of copies dating into
> the middle of the first century, already copies, not originals, having
> spread through the then-known world. We have demonstrated that writers
> in the second century were already quoting the books of the New
> Testament as materials that had been established as given, and some of
> those writers knew the authors of those works (Polycarp knew John;
> Clement of Rome knew both Peter and Paul).


Ozay wrote.......As I say, actually I think that is good if it is original, yet it does not take anything from my argument, that you cannot "KNOW" anything until you have gone there.


>
M. J. Young....... So the claim that the New Testament books are written late and therefore
> unreliable is a lie promulgated by men who wanted an excuse to
> disbelieve what it said.
> If you have any inclination toward scholarship, I recommend the works of
> Bruce Metzger and F. F. Bruce in this regard; they are regarded as the
> soundest men in the field. You can get a sort of Cliff Notes version in
> the books by Lee Strobel; I think The Case for Faith is the one that
> focuses most on these issues, but it's been a while since I read them.

Ozay wrote.......They sound interesting books and I hope people can find the true path through them, but I give little time these days to reading, I would rather give that time to prayer and meditation, it is so beautiful and peaceful there, though maybe who knows I may think about that one day.

>
M. J. Young....... Finally, you wrote, "You do not have concern for me, at all points in
> this discussion your concern has been mostly based of your need to
> consolidate your identity and how you identify as a scholar this has
> been the main focus of your discussion, that concern from you for me is
> an empty suggestion,"If that is so, then there is no need for you to reply. I only write
> because you write to me; I only wrote because you contacted me. I have
> given you what I understand to be truth, and you have no use for my
> knowledge. You have denied that I know any truth and attempted to
> persuade me to abandon the truth that I know for some experience you
> believe and trust that you have had. I will not, and nothing you say
> will change my belief that the Bible is the guide to all truth, and not
> a primer to be abandoned as long as we live in this world.

Ozay wrote.......Again I will ask the question you refuse to answer and in this refusal you give the answer: WHAT IS THE GREATER TRUTH......BELIEF OF TRUTH?.......OR.......KNOWING TRUTH? A non answer speak volumes. It is you who has denied "KNOWING" TRUTH no me because you do not talk from anything other than 'BELIEF' surely that is what we have been discussing all through our discourses, that point has been made clear by your self and your stand on BELIEF of TRUTH and me and my stand on KNOWING of TRUTH.
And again you have created an image of me so that you can justify everything you say, how common this human trait is, I say again I am here to consolidate Jesus's teaching, I am here to make your faith stronger, but what I say is you do not understand it as it is meant to be understood, and there are oter things you do not understand how it is, and because you do not ask but rather tell, we have not even hit on the surface of this that would make you a better human being and pass on a truly faultless truth.

>
> --M. J. Young.......

DISCUSSION WITH TEACHER OF CHRISTIAN TEACHER CONTINUED....

M. J. Young....... We are so far apart from each other we are not even using the same words
> to have the same meaning.

Ozay wrote.......Then you should question my meaning of the words that I use, so that we can understand, so far I have not seen this with you, and for me I have not felt a need to question specific word meanings, but I will keep an eye out for this, as one wrong meaning of any one word can take you miles away from the destination you hope to reach remember?, time, history, politics, translation from one language to another, even from one generation to another generation, here you do not realise that you have shot the whole idea of belief in the foot already, and I tell you there is a way to the truth of Jesus that is an unchangeable truth.

>
M. J. Young....... You say you do not believe anything, but only know things. I say you do
> not know anything but only believe things.

Ozay wrote.......OK lets see what you have come to this sounds as if you have started to reason from mind rather than quote from book, this to me is progress, on your behalf, teacher of teachers of the Christian faith.

>
M. J. Young....... That is, you might tell me, do you know that Barrack Obama is President
> of the United States? I assert that you cannot know that, you can only
> believe it--no matter what your experience, at some point you had to
> trust that someone was telling you the truth.


Ozay wrote.......This I can say about Barrack Obama President of the USA, I am told he is some kind of liberator for the people of America who are ethnic, I am told he is a politician, I am told he is for the good of humanity, I am told that he is controlled by the illuminati, and I am told that he is a puppet, I am told he will do great things, and then I am told that he has done nothing great. I am told that he is the most powerful man in the USA and the world, yet again I am told there is a black government that controls the world, I am told that he is for the betterment of peoples lives, but when I look there are still poor people.
Yet when I look at the TV from where I first heard his name, I see people who want me to play the game of belief for corrupt and political purposes, even the news media are not reliable for truth.

So are you telling me that I have to 'BELIEVE' anything I hear? Truth tells me "NO" I do not have to believe why should I 'BELIEVE" My mind is given to me in order to survive, therefore it is given that the illusion of power money and corruption though it is an illusion I must understand this illusion and how the illusion of man can shorten and end my life, it is here I have to play the game, to play my role in this great illusion so that life may be preserved and that other beings along with my self may have time to become god realised.

Therefore do I believe Obama is real? first is his person real? This truth I know: his name is no more real than my name, but I will accept it for administration so that this life can be prolonged. His personality is this real? No his personality is not real, because it is a creation from mind, it is created and it is uncreated that truth I "KNOW" because I have come to that truth in myself, and that self that you call Obama is my brother, this I "KNOW" also because I have come in contact with the divine spark of life that I AM, and this DIVINE SPARK THAT I AM IN IN ALL LIFE FORMS. Do I accept the Obama that others have created from their minds? No how can that Obama be true, it is just an image an identity, that identity is not real, neither is your nor mine, yet what is real is the divine spark of life that is in Obama, that is in you, that is in me, and that is the divine spark that Jesus spoke of, so you see I have no 'BELIEF' only truth that is in the self and universal.



M. J. Young.......Now, in this particular case you can say that there are a lot of people telling you the same
> thing; but even if you met someone who said "I am Barrack Obama, and I
> am President of the United States," and he was surrounded by severe
> looking men in dark suits who said, "We are the Secret Service assigned
> to protect President Obama," you would not KNOW that Barrack Obama was
> President of the United States; you would only BELIEVE this.

Ozay wrote.......As the lord Jesus said give Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar and give god what belongs to god. In this discussion you have brought two opposites together, that is materiality and spirituality. Screen play is set, all the actors are given their scripts that they must learn to play, each actor takes on his role enthusiastically, indeed they become so enthusiastic most of these actors that when they are off stage they still keep playing the role, they have been given new names but those names are false, they have been given different roles to play from each other, but they are just roles nothing else. When the play has finished then it is time to go home.
Therefore I say this: Why do you ask me to 'BELIEVE' the play when I "KNOW" it is a role? That is the truth, not a belief.

>
M. J. Young....... You do not know that the woman who claims to be your mother actually is;
> you only know that she and others told you so, and you trusted them.
> You believe that she is your mother.

Ozay wrote.......In this life she was given the role to play as my mother, but beyond her body and beyond her mind she is some thing that is much greater than just my mother, she is a child of God, she is the small drop divine spark of life, THAT I AM, and that "I KNOW" and God (Divine great light) is the great sea from whence she and myself and your self fell from,,and "THAT I AM AND THAT I KNOW".

>
M. J. Young.......You cannot seem to understand that real knowledge is the most difficult
> thing to obtain in all the universe. Descartes nearly despaired of
> knowing anything at all, and then realized that there was only one thing
> he knew of his own knowledge, and that was that someone existed who was
> capable of wondering whether someone existed, and that someone was himself.

Ozay wrote.......Real knowledge is obtainable in the self, and today it is even given by scientists what some had already come to and that is mankind are made of Star stuff, what is in is outer and that is a "TRUTH THAT I HAVE IDENTIFIED AND I THEREFORE KNOW"
Was it not Descartes who once said: "I think so therefore I am"
This one sentence is true and it is not true, because when man thinks, he man has created and illusion of self and in this self he has created many I's or identities, these mind concepts made man fall into a kind of sleep and a dreaming state with individual concepts of reality due to the dual nature of the opposing opposites of mind. Yet when man goes beyond mind and beyond all the dueal concepts there is a unity and a oneness with the great divine life force also called God this is singular yet whole and it is eternity, this is the I AM that is without illusion for it is the creator and it comes before the illusions.
What Descartes should have really quoted and he would have been more accurate is this...I THINK SO THEREFORE I AM NOT, BUT AN ILLUSION. HE DID NOT COME TO WHO THAT SELF WAS THAT STOOD BEHIND THE SELF (MIND) AND THAT SELF IS WHAT YOU CALL JESUS AND GOD.


>
M. J. Young....... Beyond that, you can only trust that what has been told or shown you by
> others is true. Even if you believe you have experienced it, it is
> still within the realm of possibility that you have been deceived by
> someone clever and/or powerful enough to manipulate your experiences.

Ozay wrote.......You can be decieved only in mind, yet if some one gives you the map and tells you which way to go, then you take the map and you follow the instuction, then you get there or you do not, a sign to know if you have got there is this: ALL BELIEFS FALL AWAY AND TRUTH REPLACES IT.

>
M. J. Young....... So I say you cannot know anything; you can only believe.

Ozay wrote.......I say, only those who have not travelled this journey in the way Christ did cannot "KNOW" it is only them who hold belief and it is only them who do not make the effort to "KNOW" Though I do accept there are those few who have made this journey and fell away from belief, into "KNOW THE WAY OF TRUTH". But those who quote from books only have 'BELEIFS'


>
M. J. Young....... You say you have "NO ARGUMENTS". Yet you continue to argue. Obviously
> whatever you mean by arguments is entirely different from what I mean by
> arguments. An argument is a statement that arranges evidence with the
> intention of proving a point so as to change the position or belief of
> another person. Do you deny that you have been attempting to sway what
> I think to match what you think? Anything you say that has that purpose
> is itself an argument. If it is not an argument, then it is a
> meaningless string of words to no purpose, or a statement of personal
> belief not intended to have any impact on anyone else.


Ozay wrote.......You write, I write, your aim is? my aim is? If there is argument for you, that is for you to beleive. My aim is to debate and for you to come to the truth, and the way I do this debate is to way lay your demons by pointing them out, therefore what I do is reveal the truth, that is NOT ARGUMENT, but for you it can be anything because you have 'BELIEF' your whole life is made from this unevolved state. But I tell you there is a system where belief can be used in a real way, so I am not against belief in the scientific way that I know it, but I am against belief as it is used by the unenlightened where much evil is perpetuated because of it, and you are in an important position teacher of Christian teachers. I come to establish true faith in Jesus words.

>
M. J. Young....... Interestingly, I was studying Colossians 1:9f this morning, and found
> that the word there used for "knowledge"--twice--specifically meant
> intellectual comprehension, first of God's will and second of Him
> Himself. I also note that another word in those two verses sometimes
> rendered "understanding" literally means putting things together in your
> mind to reach logical conclusions.

Ozay wrote.......That is good...... "intellectual comprehension" That is how I found my way to god in self, I found that mental concepts and beliefs were forms of imprisonment, then by using logic and reasoning there would be a release, from each individual prison, everything that was thought and believed was undone in this way, as we are doing in this discussion, but this can only be done correctly when one uses total honesty and kicks out what cannot be proven, it is a humbling thing when you come to the truth of who you truly are in this way..


>
M. J. Young....... Paul obviously embraced the intellectual pursuit of understanding God.
> It was not the only aspect he embraced or promoted, but he did not
> reject it. You, on the other hand, reject anything that contradicts
> you, no matter the source. Again, I choose to believe Paul over Ozay.
> I am much better persuaded that Paul actually met God in Jesus Christ
> and managed to explain it accurately.


Ozay wrote.......The intellectual pursuit when carried out in the correct way with total honesty and no belief will eventually teach you 3 things in all of your life and this is what the whole thing boils down to (1) TO "UNDERSTAND" (2) TO "ACCEPT" WHAT YOU COME TO UNDERSTAND BY WAY OF TRUTH. (3) MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL "TO LET GO". Everything in life depends on these 3 rules, and a good reasoning ability will tell you that, eventually that process will lead you to the ultimate truth, there is "NOTHING" yet here you embrace the wholeness of reality and find that you are a divine life force a divine human being, here you will tap into great compassion a great love from self of self and toward the whole of creation.
Did Paul ask you to believe him and if he or Jesus did, I will say there is more to this than meets your eyes, and I will tell you also I have "NEVER ONCE ASKED YOU TO BELIEVE ME" Indeed all the time I have been constantly telling you "NOT TO BELIEVE" That means I am asking not to believe me not to believe Jesus in the wrong way, but what I have been saying all along IS THIS: TAKE THE JOURNEY YOURSELF AND FIND OUT" so how come you a self confessed intelligent teacher of teachers have still not be able to absorb this information what is it that blocks you? it is called identity, ego too much mind.


>
> As to your suggestion that politics changed what the Bible said, I have
> two answers.
>
> The first is that I have at hand a textual commentary that compares the
> hundreds of ancient copies and translations of the New Testament in an
> effort to determine the actual original text of each book it contains,
> and I am quite aware of how amazingly close we are to that original.
> The sort of tampering you suggest has been attempted, but because
> already at the dawn of the second century writers all over the world
> were quoting the text (and we have many of those writings) and copies
> and translations had spread throughout the known world, all such
> attempts are horribly obvious. Our current copies of the New Testament
> are so well documented that any claim of tampering or inaccuracy is
> ludicrous.

Ozay wrote.......When you have found God and I can tell you the Bible is good as it is, why can I say that Because I used it, but I will also tell you when you do find god in yourself then it will be a natural thing for you to be able to identify where the Bible has been tampered with, only I can know that, and only those who have gone that way can know that, and there is one other vital flaw you have not considered besides the problem of translation different meaning of words in any one time period etc etc that is this:
Jesus was the Son of God how long after his death was everything written down? quite some time I gather. But here is my point A man can become god realised then the man standing next to him wishes to write it down, you have to understand that godrealiseation is without mind it is therefore without words, it is a happening an experience of the devine.
Now consider a man come back and tells the man standing next to him this experience, an experience the man next to him never had and probablt will never have. he writes it down, that is like a man who has seen a great light telling a man who has only seen darkness his interpretation will always be wrong, because he who has written has not seen that light. That is a fact.

Try asking a man who has been blind all his life to explain what colour is, he will dictate some thing he has been told, but he and others like him will not have the slightest idea of what colour truly is, there can only be fantasy and imaginaing and 'BELIEF'


>
M. J. Young....... The second is that if what you say is so, that the New Testament is not
> reliable, then nothing is--least of all the word of a man who is a
> stranger to me who thinks he has exclusive knowledge.

Ozay wrote.......That is some thing I have been saying all the time, do you see, even some one like you can come to a truth, however minor that truth is, but it is a starting point, again I remind you, you have to go there and find the truth for yourself, I cannot make you god realised only you can do that for yourself, but first you have to LET GO of your mothers breasts, ie intellect and belief and then follow the way that is pointed out to you.


M. J. Young.......There have been people like you since the dawn of time, all claiming to have some direct
> revelation and experiential knowledge, and they have all given different
> versions of what they claimed to be the truth.

Ozay wrote......I will tell you this: I am not the truth, the truth is beyond this what is communicating, but I "KNOW" truth again I am not asking you to believe anything I say, only trial and error will give you the truth I have, 'BELIEF' will not, I cannot give it to you, you give it to yourself.

M. J. Young....... I am certainly not about
> to believe something Ozay Rinpoche writes over something Paul of Tarsus
> writes, particularly when Paul of Tarsus agrees with Peter of Galilee
> and John of Galilee and Luke of Macedonia and James the Brother of the
> Lord and Jude the Brother of James, and several others. Ozay, you are
> outnumbered, outclassed, and out-thought. I'm sorry that I cannot
> accept what you are so persuaded by your experience is truth, but I
> cannot find any reason to suppose that some spirit who is not God has
> taken advantage of your sincere desire to experience something special
> and lured you into a lie.


Ozay wrote........Where has any lie came through this vessel? To make allegations that one is a liar then one must be specific about the lie that is being spoken, otherwise your information comes from the dark side, it comes from the lie that you are, that is it comes from an ego, an identity struggling to keep survival, but it is a lie and innately it knows its own lie, and that is why it cannot stay logical, it needs dark forces to consolitdate its lie, a lie can only concolidate a lie.
No my brother I am not outnumbered at all I am unified in one, in all those names you mentioned I am in them and they are all in me how can I be out numbered there also needs to be a war, there also needs to be division I am none of these things, it is only you who percieves this, because that is all you are permitted to percive due to the nature of your mind, mind is divided it is not unified the way god is.

>
M. J. Young....... I could be wrong, and I always do admit that I could be wrong; but I do
> know that Paul and Peter and James and John and Jude and the others are
> right, and to the degree that what you wrote disagrees with what they
> wrote, you must be wrong.


Ozay wrote.......You are not wrong, only if you believe you are wrong, You missed out Thomas, and you missed out Judas, these disciples were as important as the rest of them, in fact you could say that Judas was the greatest of all disciples, because he truly believed Jesus was Messiah one may 'BELIEVE' and thought he could make 100 gold coins and better the cause of the purse, after all the Messiah was capable of supernatural feats, he was seen by his disciples to have walked across the water and such things as this, could this not be demonstration of his 'BELIEF' in miracles, and to back up Judas's purity after Jesus was taken and crucified, did Judas not Kill himself because of what had happened. Not even Peter did this for he deserted Jesus at the second Crocking of the cock.
And what of Thomas? many think that he was not a good disciple because he would not fall into belief without first putting his hand into the wound of Jesus, but then what? He did not need any belief system after this, all of Jesus's disciples stand for all of humanity and the passing of time and the changes invoked by each generation, now it is time for Thomas generation, if the teachings of the church does not see this then it stands the risk of fading away as it is already seen to be doing today. I am not taking away but I am adding to Jesus.

>
M. J. Young....... I appreciate your continued expressions of concern for me. I continue
> to have genuine concern for you, but recognize that it would be of
> little use to continue trying to explain to you why I believe what I
> believe--or, in the words you would prefer, how I know what I know,
> which means the same thing.


Ozay wrote........You do not have concern for me, at all points in this discussion your concern has been mostly based of your need to consolidate your identity and how you identify as a scholar this has been the main focus of your discussion, that concern from you for me is an empty suggestion, though my concern is not just for you and how you do not understand the truth of Jesus but also those who come after you and ultimately in modern times because of this trait of negative belief and positive belief ultimately the end of the Christian church and what it stands for.
>

CONTINUED DISCUSSION WITH TEACHER OF CHRISTIAN TEACHERS

M. J. Young....... I certainly understand how you can perceive me as holding my position
> based on ego. It is, after all, how I perceive you--yet I have had the
> courtesy to take you as sincere in your beliefs, and believing that they
> are honestly held and based on good evidence.

Ozay wrote.........Did you not tell me that you were classed as intelligent at the beginning of this discourse?....... Hamish was travelling on a train next to a stern faced clergyman. As Hamish pulled out his bottle of whisky from his pocket, the clergyman glared and said reprovingly,"Look here I am 65 and never tasted whisky in my life!" "Dinna worry, Minister" smiled Hamish, pouring himself a dram "There's no risk of you starting now"

Sincere in my beliefs? Again I tell you I have no beliefs, still you hold onto this, and you have seen why it is incorrect to hold beliefs and still you hold and grovel this idea, how many times must I say this, and why do you still NOT HEAR THE WORDS OF TRUTH? I AM NOT THE TRUTH, THE TRUTH IS GREATER THAN ME, BUT I HAVE BEEN THE WAY OF THE TRUTH AND "I KNOW" I HAVE EXPERIENCED THE TRUTH IN MYSELF, YET 'I' THE EGO AM NOT THAT TRUTH.
Therefore do you not see how void your last sentence has become now? In-fact your whole base is built on this very weak foundation, you have no idea outside of belief, don't you see that Thomas was not one of Jesus's disciples for no reason Thomas represents symbolically mans need for truth, and "PROOF" not proof placed on fantasy(BELIEF), Peters child like faith held him well he was just a simple minded fisherman, today everyone has become psychologists and scientists, they do not have Peters simplistic mind ie a mind stuffed with facts figures data and knowledge, everyone has taken a bigger amount of fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Naive are no longer able to maintain belief as they once did the naive hardly exist anymore, and because they are no longer naive, and if they do it in this old system then they have to defend fiercely with useless information that does not stand its ground in the light of todays knowledge and science this means the time has come that everyone may have full truth or they will fall away from their faith in Christ and eventually the teaching of Christ will become weaker, I was in London when the Pope came recently and there has never been such a low turn out, not only that there were lots of protesters against the Pope, you are a teacher and have an important role to play, if you cannot understand what I am saying then how much hope is there for the Church of Christ, or Peter?


>
M. J. Young....... You will of course object to my use of the word "evidence"; but one of
> my degrees is in law (the doctorate), and so I use the word "evidence"
> to mean "that which supports what we conclude to be the truth". That
> is, I have evidence that my wife exists, because I have met her. I have
> evidence that God exists, because I have met Him.

Ozay wrote.......There can be "NO EVIDENCE WHERE THERE IS NO ABILITY TO PROVE THAT EVIDENCE" otherwise how can it be evidence? I have that ability but you do not and neither does anyone you know, otherwise the truth can be distorted outside of recognition as it has been done with the Christian faith, "20 CHOICES OF EVIDENCE TO CHOSE FROM" In a court of law if this was the case the whole thing would be thrown out as insufficient proof.

You call this, the way of truth? I call this chaos and random confusion and the beginning of the end of Christianity as you know it. What do you chose to conclude to be the truth? and how do you know if you are right or if you are wrong. 20 choices remember.....You have not even learned to question the way to the truth, you accept what fits your 'BELIEF' and your 'EGO' 'BELIEVES' 'YOU' are correct, yet this 'BELIEF' and the corner stone it is built on begins from your need to create your identity as a person, your personality, how 'YOU' 'THINK' how 'YOU' are percieved, how 'YOU' 'THINK' 'OTHERS' perceive 'YOU'. How can you build truth from this falsity? For many my words ring true, but you who class yourself as intelligent have become in this discourse highly unintelligent due to the fact that by accepting this truth that I speak of that everything you have become will have to go, 'YOU' and what 'YOU' 'THINK' 'YOU' are will have to commit a suicide, that is all your 'BELIEFS' will have to die. That is the meaning to dieing to self and being born again, that is the false representation of who 'YOU' 'THINK' 'YOU' are will go, will be gone, it is a great sacrifice, and you think that holding on to the HOLY Bible makes that you are a 'HOLY' man it is quite the contrary, it has made you even more of a liar to your true self, and by that God.


>
M. J. Young....... So I extend to you the courtesy of accepting that your beliefs are
> honestly held and not arrogantly defended for the sake of your ego. Yet
> you insult me with every letter with the claim that what I "know" is not
> honestly held but is simply a defense of my own ego.

Ozay wrote.......You extend no courtesy to 'ME' That 'ME' you talk about is what you have created in 'YOUR MIND' that 'ME' is also a 'LIE' the truth is beyond what your 'BELIEF' has created, my ego had to stand down in order to see this "TRUTH", yours is having great difficulty. My ego is a tool that I have to use in order that others may find the way to that "TRUTH", and the truth does not have to be defended, if the truth had to be defended then it cannot be a defence of the truth, because the truth will always be there, and the truth will always be unchangeable, even though man may change from age to age, he may change his belief from age to age, but the truth will be the same now as it was in the beginning as it will be in the end, it is only the 'MIND' of man who 'THINKS' it changes, it is an ignorant society that cannot see this simple truth which is above and beyond the ego mind of mankind, I have seen this and you have not.
Further, it is only your ego that can make you FEEL insult, when there is NO EGO THERE IS NO INSULT and there is no block to seeking the truth, the block being your 'BELIEF' unreal hold on reality, for words are just words, they are of mind stuff, unreal, and ego is of mind stuff, unreal, if one 'BELIEVES' this mind stuff to be real, then it is INSULT, then it is HURT, then it is ANGER, and then it is EVIL, and therefore it speaks that you are egoistically orientated, and not truth orientated, that is just fact that only you can change the outcome of, you have been conditioned like all others to 'BELIEVE' your ego is real, here lies the cause to all suffering.


>
M. J. Young....... How egotistical is that?

Ozay wrote.......Read my last sentence again...... if you dare.

>
M. J. Young....... I will continue to give you the courtesy of responding to your letters,
> if you insist on sending them.

Ozay wrote.......Why? your ego has been defeated, and what we have left is defence mechanisms, now the mind considers it has a moral duty to respond, but in truth it is just a façade, just a play in order to make you feel good about you, that you are doing a morally correct thing, it is just a play.

M. J. Young.......Your arguments, however, have no
> foundation I can recognize and accept (they are entirely based on your
> own claimed experiences, which run counter both to my own experiences
> and the experiences the Bible teaches me to expect).

Ozay wrote.......I have "NO ARGUMENTS", 'I' have stood down for the truth to take first place, 'I' have no say in the presence of truth, or god, 'I' am just the servant, if there is an argument then it is only one way, it comes from 'YOU' The experiences I have gone through are exactly the same as Jesus Christ, and the experiences you are going through are the same experiences that those Jews and Romans went through who executed Jesus, it was done holding a book in there hands they also 'BELIEVED' they also 'JUDGED' and everything they did was measured from the 'BOOK' of law, they did not understand the book Jesus spoke of was the book of the heart, the book of the self, it was an experience of the self which any man who experiences can be left in no doubt anymore in his life what that truth is, THAT IS:"HE IS THE TRUTH" and that will be the same for all human being who can get their head out of books, out of judging, out of belief, and into truth and unity. 20 stories makes 20 sides makes 20 wars. One story "TRUTH" makes one side, wholeness makes LOVE AND UNITY. And you will still have the arrogance to argue the toss with the truth as it is? 'I' cannot argue with that, therefore how can 'YOU'?


M. J. Young.......Thus unless you
> can turn yourself into a scholar capable of presenting sound biblical
> exegesis in support of your gospel (which is not Paul's gospel, and he
> gave strict warnings about accepting any gospel other than the one he
> preached), I think you are wasting your time and mine.

Ozay wrote.......2000 year old writings, Roman intervention to change what people 'BELIEVE' so that they can have "CONTROL" Politics and Bible have gone hand in hand, if the scholar is truly a scholar should he not also have integrated this into his scholarship? If not then it is a very select scholarship, which in effect means it is "NOT A TRUE SCHOLARSHIP" it does not cover everything, and yet again I will tell you god cannot be found in the book, the book is a map, it is not god, you cannot know god from a book you can only travel that road it points out. You "TAKE PRIDE IN YOUR SCHOLARSHIP" and yet it states man shall not be proud and boastful, and it is such that will be brought to their knees, your pride in your scholarship will get bigger and bigger the more you can convince that scholarship is the way, but I tell you this, it is only by becoming STILL that you can know God and the divine love that this unwraps from the veils of mind, hence if mind is forever thinking then the heart does not become unwrapped, therefore there can be no experience outside of 'BELIEF' that is a fact. You know this as well as I do, but still your ego does not stand down.
>

DISCUSSION WITH TEACHER OF CHRISTIAN TEACHERS COMING TO A CONCLUSION

-M. J. Young wrote..... Your fascinating explanation of spirits is not found in scripture. I
must conclude that the spirits told you this--and we've already
established that I do not trust what the spirits tell you, so you can
toss it all in the circular file.

Also, the Bible does not teach that man becomes God. Quite the
contrary, the Bible teaches that the desire to be God is the height of
arrogance.

I am the more persuaded that you have been deceived.

Since you know that I am wrong and I know that you are deceived, our
conversation is unlikely to resolve our differences.

Thank you again for writing. I am sorry I could not help you.

M. J. Young

Ozay replies.......And this is the only way out of this discussion for you, so that you can save your identity, the idea of spirits is the last thing you can come up with, that I find very sad, this is the best your defence mechanism can do, you have tried all kinds of things to dominate and discredit with your ego and in the face of truth everything fell by the wayside, now you concoct some false allegation of some form of spirit possession?
What can I say to that, ok you walk away ego in tact, try to feel good about yourself at the cost of another ego that is the power games of ego not a seeker of truth.

But you have failed yourself and you have failed Jesus Christ and the holy spirit.
I have seen this defence mechanism played out before, you are not unique in this and it is common for a man who is possed with such an ego who when faced with truth, and therefore cannot find anything wrong to justify the egos standing it will invent scenarios, but more than just invent scenarios it will accuse that person of the very same thing that you are guilty of yourself, that is what happens when the lie meets the truth when the ego learns it is not real.

No spirit told me this, all this was told to me by knowing god, and knowing god by being still, you just have no idea, and you do not wish to have any idea of the true god, you hold the devil called your ego as first and foremost, you pretend to be holier than thou, but you are not.

You have invented a personality about me, who you wish me to be, so that you can feel good about you, which you know and I know is false, so that you can feel good about what you are not, to keep a lie you have invented, now if you are really a man of Jesus, then you must see the error of your ways, and what else should you do?

I did not have a desire to become like god, I had a desire to find an answer to my suffering and it was in suffering that God revealed himself to me, how many times must I tell you? It is the height of jealousy when a man judges another mans spiritual evolution as a negative thing in the way you have here, for me it is just a small and simple truth, but for you, you are possessed by the spirit of jealousy, for you have been given truth, and only truth which you cannot deny, but you have resisted all the way.

No the Bible does not teach we become Gods, the Bible teaches we become sons of God. And Jesus stated this: Those are gods (note it is spelled with a small "g" not a big "G") to whom the word of God is delivered.

And in Genesis who do you think those gods were who made love to the daughters of man? and there are references to becoming sons of God in the acts of the apostles. You know the Bible better than I do and you have missed all this, or is this just merely a distraction from the truth yet again? For what purpose?

Do not try to fool me my friend for your egos sake, you have discredited yourself by doing this, and you have discredited the church you stand for.

Now are you ready to stand down from your ego and truly know the truth, or is this too much to ask from you? and you will carry on as you have done, but now you have been exposed to the truth, this means you now become a sinner if you do not change your way and change your teaching the truth cannot fail to penetrate once we have been exposed and now it is up to you with what you do with it, again I tell you I do not speak down on Jesus I am here to consolidate Jesus's teaching and add to it and therefore to strengthen faith, but first you must die to this lie you are living..

DOES A MAN OR WOMAN HAVE FREE WILL?

If a man fears hunger then he has no free will, he is a prisoner of his hunger. Yet he is only a prisoner if he THINKS, because the Sun does not 'THINK' yet it is governed by universal laws which it does not break, does the Sun have free wi...ll or not? one has to consider then that the difference between the Sun and man is mind, and that mind is that which has created thought and hence created the illusion that there is no free will or karma or free will.

A man may be in a prison cell, he is free to move around in that prison cell, and he will feel free so long as he does not look at the 4 walls of that prison cell and start to THINK he has no free will OR NO FREEDOM yet before he 'THOUGHT' then he was FREE.

Again a man may have a country and a job in that country, and he is free within that Job and within that country, at least that is how he FEELS, but then mind may come in and he may 'THINK' why do I have to toil so much to earn a crust for my plate just to live and be happy, why can I not travel anywhere in the world I like instead of this?

Then he will see his 9-5 job as a prison, he will see that he has no free will, he will see that he cannot go whence he pleases as he is governed by laws of job and family and country border control and the hunger of his belly and his families belly.

Again a man may be a billion aire, and do anything he pleases in the world, indeed he can even buy freedom for the prisoners if he so desires, he can buy an army if he so desires, he can pay to build a space ship that can travel to the moon and back, one may say he has free will, but if he says I cannot control happiness, one day I feel happy then another day I am unhappy, all this money and still I cannot control my own happiness, indeed he has many people around him who are there because he has money and control all their lives, but still there is some thing he 'THINKS' is missing again he loses his free will he cannot control his happiness.

A child who has not reached sexual maturity feels free, and has free will, then when he reaches sexual maturity he is driven to act outside of the child, he may see this as exciting, yet as time goes on and he learns that it is not simple, rather it is all complex because of the role he has to play in order to mate which takes a lot of his lifes energies just for that moment of gratification, he will see that he has become addicted to this small moment of gratification, and that his whole life is built just for those small moments of gratification in the act of sex, then he may 'THINK' when he was a child he was free, now suddenly he has lost his FREE WILL he is a prisoner of sexual gratification.

A man may come home and switch on his TV, and feel he has great pleasure great freedom, free will he watches all the stuff that some one else has created in order to make him a slave to his need of gratification for himself and his wife and children, so long as he stays like this he 'THINKS' he has free will, Then one day he comes home and has a moment of inspired thought and sees that he and all his family has been hypnotised and conditioned not to 'THINK' he is part of a slave culture then again he is in a prison and has not FREE WILL he is a prisoner of the government and the coorparate companies that run the world, why because he 'THINKS'.

Therefore I say again so long as man fears death he will never have free will, only enlightenment will give him that where he become unified without mind to gods creation and the whole of the cosmos.

MORE OF THE DISCUSSION OF THE TEACHER OF CHRISTIAN TEACHERS

M. J. Young.......You make much of your experience, and denigrate my reliance of the Bible
> as a means of validating the content of experience.

Ozay wrote.......You forget what I have said often for some reason? Again the Bible is a good tool to point the way as a map, destination reached, map not needed anymore, when it is used after this it becomes an identity, god can only be found when the illusion of self is gone, hence to die to self and be born again into truth.


M. J. Young...... Bear with me for this.
>
M. J. Young...... Let us imagine for a moment that beyond our physical, material, and
> mortal realm there is a spiritual realm. We have only limited access to
> such a realm, and that access is primarily gained by whoever or whatever
> exists in that realm choosing to reach into ours.

Ozay wrote.......Yes I have identified those realms and know where the true god is, my ability to identifying comes in order of this, on the lowest level those spirits are Earth bound and attached to the desire for material wealth and the things of the world, they relate to instinctive behaviour this relates to the animal in man, or lower nature as the bible indicates, these spirits are called eternally damned, yet this is incorrect.

On a middle level those spirits are attached to identity, yet they recognise there is a some thing higher because the divine spark is felt, but due to the nature of mind it cannot identify where this divine spark it to be found, so the search is carried out in the outside world through sense pleasures, identifying is one such sense pleasure, these spirits are what some called eternally damned, yet this is not correct.

Then there are those who are 3/4 way to god, who can communicate with the man who is pure but still in body form, these are called in books arch angels or communicators between the true god and man.

Then when all this phenomena is stilled, man becomes that cosmic acean called GOD, LIFE, LIFE FORCE, ETERNITY, DIVINE LOVE you see, we are one small drop of that cosmic ocean, it is just that though we are the water of God we are dirty water corrupted by mind and its attachments to Earthly ways identifying with scholarship is one thing, but using holy books as a guide is some thing completely different, one is still cluttered by mind, and it is mind that veils true god experience.

Though some of my explanation above the words have been taken from books, first this information was come to be me as an experience, therefore knowing this experience, knowing the lower realm and the higher realm I am qualified to speak on such intricate matters, but you have to understand I am talking in your language which is not adequate to show fully everything that is, here only a very small part can be explained with the media of communication we use, and the more pure you become the more grater this media will become.


>
M. J. Young...... It is possible that there is only one being in that world, and thus
> whatever comes from that world comes from that one being. However,
> those who throughout history have claimed to have had contact with that
> world have stated that there is one, or two, or several, or many, or
> innumerable beings in that realm. It thus is at least possible that any
> of a nearly infinite number of beings might choose to convey information
> to us.

Ozay wrote.......It can be explained more clearly, that there is only one true light, and that is white light (GOD) this gives all the other spectrum's of light, though a man may say he is red light, without white light he cannot exist, and nothing can exist, yet there is black, or no light without this it would not be possible for white light, so you may say that Black has to go with white, like there is a male light and a female light, this truth can only be come to when you know god in the self, those colours in-between cannot exist without these two opposites, Further it is a fact that there is life in the universe where there is diverse life forms, and if these life forms have been around much longer than us, then it is possible you will have the bushman meeting the high technology man of today and thinking he is a god, well to the bush man he is god, yet the god I speak of can only be understood as a point of evolution where man has moved away from belief into knowing by direct experience, the inner self conveyes the who of creation and for most people they have not even began to look inside the self to see this relationship with what you call the many spirits and the one spirit of life also called white light here and GOD.


>
M. J. Young...... Further, we know nothing about those beings. We have no way of knowing
> whether they have any motivation to deceive us--which means we would be
> fools to believe that whatever they communicate to us is automatically
> truth.

Ozay wrote.......Further, you know nothing of these spirits, or beings though I do not know all of those manifestations I know enough to say there is those that are evolving, those that are highly evolved and those that are like man just children who suck up to belief systems because they 'BELIEVE' the greatest lie of all 'DEATH' man is fear driven that is why he has such rediculous belief systems and does not wish to sacrifice them, because initially he fears death.


>
M. J. Young...... It is for this reason that the God of the Bible took such visible and
> dramatic steps to demonstrate His concern for us and His identity as The
> Creator. It would be easy enough for any spirit to claim to be God and
> to overwhelm us with what might be simple parlor tricks in its world.
> The God of the Bible chose to do much more to demonstrate His identity
> and His altruism.

Ozay wrote.......For you who is stuck in 'BELEIF' such statements are relevant only to you and those who are stuck only with 'BELIEF' yet there are those who are brave enough to truly wish to find an answer, a true answer and that answer can only come when you take that map in your hand and start travelling and stop preaching, the answer will be found when this personality so full of 'BELIEFs' comes to an end, it has to die before you can know, until you can see that you are not standing in the correct place, then for the rest of your life you will be stuck in this inaduquate 'BELIEF' system, I am not here to take Jesus away from any man, but I am here to reinforce what Jesus taught, but in a modern way for modern man this will re-estabalish not belief but rather the truth of mans relationship with his cosmic father.


>
M. J. Young...... You might have met Him. On the other hand, you might have met any of an
> unknown number of impostors who wish you to believe something entirely
> wrong, and so have revealed to you lies as if they were truth. We do
> not know what motive they might have for doing so, but that does not
> prove that they would have no such motive.

Ozay wrote.......Again your whole sentence here is stuck, you cannot go any way with it because you are always flawed in belief, if a man does not "KNOW" then he should be "BRAVE" enough to state I cannot "KNOW" but I am willing to find out, if you are not willing to find out the truth for yourself, why do you speak so much? Surely an evolved man must be better than that? What point of all this information all these road maps if you merely just read them every day without going the destination?


>
M. J. Young...... The Bible is my assurance that the experience I have matches that of
> others who have been in contact with this particular spirit, the One Who
> is most likely The God and Who has done more than any other spirit to
> demonstrate His personal concern for us.

Ozay wrote.......The Bible for you is much like a baby who comes off the mothers breast and then goes onto sucking the babies teet, it is just for comfort nothing else, it promises yet cannot forfill anything outside of what a hypnotist cannot accomplish, it is a mind preoccupation like watching tv, you forget the world outside of the tv box and it is comforting, but this only lasts for as long as you hold on then one day when you have to let go you will be on your own, or living in the imagery that the imagination has created, there is a truth that is much greater that this identifying, for identifying is just merely robbing yourself of your true inheritance.


>
M. J. Young......You think you know, but you only know what you have experienced, and you
> have no way of knowing whether the experience you have been given has
> been a lie intended to deceive you and lead you into a trap. I also
> have experience, but I have a means of measuring my experience against a
> standard for what The God is really like. Absent that, you have no way
> to be certain that the being who has given you this experience is not
> luring you to your destruction.

Ozay wrote.......I DO NOT THINK I KNOW......"I KNOW"...... and that which I do not know I am man enough to say "I DO NOT KNOW" I will not fall into any 'BELIEF" system, any man who gives another an a belief system gives that man poison, yet a man who can distinguish the difference beweet what benefit a belief system has up against what benefit a system of experience therefore a "knowing" SYSTEM HAS ALREADY EVOLVED BEYOND THIS WORLD where we are all conditioned to have 'BELIEF' therefore he has already showed he is evolved pass the norm. Again you struggle with your belief about what I know, this is not my problem this is your problem I mertely state fact to you, and I even give you hints why you are having trouble...identifying...ego..... and still you are stuck for without your belief system you have nothing to say, this is most difficult for you, but still it does not deny the truth I have spoken which has come to me for you, it is like seed being dropped on fertile or infertile soil, that soil can only be created when you make effort to look at where you stand and the uselessness of a belief system, again I remind you Jesus was a saviour, but only for a very small margin, he stands at the gate way as he said, but it is a very narrow gateway, much more narrow than you can realise.

It is simple to see concerning your last reference in this above sentence, this is your struggle not my struggle, you are full of doubt because of your 'BELIEF' I am not...."I KNOW GOD AS EXPERIENCE" when you have experienced God then there is no doubt and this God has no identity, therefore with no individual identity but the core of all identity, and I who have lost this identity and unified with all cannot be wrong, but for you? where do you stand some where? For me I stand everywhere because I am in God and God is within me.



>
M. J. Young...... You condemn my ego, but your ego is far greater. I admit that I am
> fallible, that I might misunderstand, and that I am reliant on others to
> help me grasp the truth behind my experience. You make yourself the
> measure of all things.

Ozay wrote.......Yes, you are correct about both mentions on ego, my ego IS GREATER THAN YOUR EGO and the reason for this is because I have my feet placed firmly in truth and I know that my ego is a non reality, or a creation of the God that I am, therefore this gives a great flexibility when you know that this ego is an illusion of a self that must die, when this attached ego becomes killed then to live in the world one must recreate a new ego, but this ego will never again have the hold it once had, it thought it was who I AM, but then when it was Killed, I knew who I AM as direct experience of the true nature of self, you see for me I can pick up this ego and then I can put it down like a tool in my tool collection, but for those who do not know the truth of this ego for them the ego is who they are, identity, and they will fight and they will kill and they will join other egos which identify to the same kind and here will be the struggle and eternal damnation, because it can be an eternal struggle. This ego is full of error, and yet powerfull when driven by its recognition of its true nature, it is not the ego that is the true measure it is that which stands in stillness behind the ego which has the full measure of truth and it is this that I know is god in me and therefore I am his servant, you see my ego is humble to that which stands behind, yet it is a great warrior against the lie of itself and other selves that are invented, because it recognises its own unreality it seems that it is very strong, yet this strength was found by the ultimate weakness of death of the ego.

DISCUSSION GOES ON AND ON WITH TEACHER OF TEACHERS, THESE ARE HARDEST OF ALL EGOS

M. J. Young...... You wrote:
> *****
> ...this effect is short lived and has no long term effect where as the
> true experince has a permanent effect.
>If what god is telling you that what he told you is different than
> what I have been given then it is likely that you fit the category of
> person that I have just mentioned,...
> *****
>
M. J. Young...... O.K., let me try this: if what you believe God has told you is
> different from what the Apostle Paul was given, then it is likely that
> you are dealing with a different spirit who is not God nor Jesus Christ
> whom God has sent.


Ozay wrote.......Again, again and again I have told you, why is it you do not take notice, here it is for the 100th time, just for your ego to see:::I HAVE NO BELIEF, I AM BRAVE ENOUGH TO SAY I EITHER KNOW OR I DO NOT KNOW, only a man who lives by belief and opinions is otherwise. And because of this, you cannot begin to know the true God, you the blind make such judgement, I see further down you mention arrogance, I have never seen anything more arrogant than this.


>
M. J. Young...... My studies, which you so denigrate, have given me a very clear
> understanding of what the Apostle Paul taught. That is also consistent
> with my experience of God.

Ozay wrote.......If you had the true experience of God you would not need Paul to confirm anything, you would not need no book to confirm, in fact that you hold a book in hand for confirmation indicates that you have not had that experience it likely fits the variety I have mentioned before I have seen so many of you who have claimed this, yet the shape of your ego is plenty of proof, but you cannot know none of this because your ego cannot allow to lose to me, my ego has already been lost to truth.


>
M. J. Young...... ozay wrote....That experience with God dates back over most of half a century, so if
> it is "short lived" with "no long term effect" it is difficult to prove
> that someone else's is longer, or will be longer by the time mine ends.
>
M. J. Young...... I do not deny that you have had a spiritual experience. I question
> whether the spirit that you contacted is the God of Abraham, of Jacob,
> of Noah, of Moses, of Jesus, and of Paul. Your arrogant insistence that
> you are right and Paul is wrong only confirms my belief that you have
> missed the truth.

Ozay wrote.......Arrogance only belongs to ego, when ego has been conquered such as in my case, it is merely a simple truth, and therefore on this point it is more about you and where you stand and why you chose to believe what you believe rather than follow the way and find out, but to do this you would have to sacrifice so much of your prestige which is what I would be asking you to do....Remember god has no name, when asked by one of those historical characters you have learned about he was told I AM THAT WHAT I AM. And this can only be understood by one who has God realiseation, forget about the names...ALL YOU HAVE IS BELIEF SOME BASED ON TRUTH AND SOME BASED ON UNTRUTHS, WHICH REALLY MEANS 1 DEGREE OUT OF THE COMPASS AND YOU HAVE MISSED THE DESTINATION WHEN YOU ARE MEANT TO GET THERE.


M. J. Young......You will call me arrogant for saying so. I can only answer that my
> claim is not that God has given me personal revelation of truths which I
> insist everyone else who has encountered God knows, but that God has
> given Paul such revelation, and confirmed that as truth to me.

Ozay wrote........You are talking about a historical figure who lived 2000 years ago, on top of that you are talking about a language that like any other language that has chad words meaning change, just like our English language, look at the difference for some of the meanings Americans give to the same words used in UK or the Austrailians that is enough proof for you that 1 degree out on the compass can change the detination, then of course there is translation on top of time change, your information has become flawed because of that, then since Jesus died Christianity went through the hands of Roman emperors etc etc. How can you have any grounds for an argument even with another academic, never along with onne like me who HAS HAD THE TRUE EXPERIENCE OF GOD, LIKE IT OR LUMP IT, THAT IS THE TRUTH. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM SO SAVE YOUR EGO OR FINISH IT NOW.


>
M. J. Young...... You wrote:
> *****
> ...yet all sentences in the Bible point you back to this one sentence:
> Be STILL and KNOW THAT I AM GOD.
> *****
>
M. J. Young...... Interestingly, those words appear only once in the Bible, in Psalm
> 46:10, and are never quoted or cited elsewhere. They have much less
> claim to being the core message of the Bible than, say, "Love the Lord
> your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength", "Love your
> neighbor as yourself", "The righteous will live by faith", or even
> "Abraham trusted God, and it was reckoned to him as
> righteousness"--words which are repeated multiple times in scripture,
> which are discussed and expounded.

Ozay wrote.......Well quoted 1 or 100 times, it has been quoted and has meaning, and backs up the true experience this will be testified by all saints who have had god experience, why do you think they needed isolation? Be still know that I am god. Ok Love the lord your god with all your body soul and mind I tell you when you have become still this love is not ordinary love and that is why it is called divine love, one must be still, and time will stop, and your space will dissapear along with the self, here is what born again is ego dies the nature of mind is understood as falsity, see you do not know nothing of this, but all the clues are given in the bible. Everything is correct as you quoted, but you DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT AS IT IS MEANT.


>
M. J. Young...... It appears to me that you are trying to find what you wish to be believe
> in the pages of the Bible, instead of trying to define what you believe
> from the Bible.

Ozay wrote....Here you go again 'BELIEF' Anyone who has belief will be flawed, he will also be at war with himself and with humanity, because belief will change but truth cannot,HOW MANY MORE TIME WILL I TELL YOU AND STILL THOUGH YOU LISTEN YOU DO NOT HEAR ME, THOUGH YOU LOOK YOU SEE NOTHING ARE YOU SO LOST?


>
M. J. Young...... And the state of nothingness you describe is not suggested anywhere in
> scripture. God does not want us to cease to be individuals. He wants
> us to become individuals united in love with Him and each other, but
> always individuals.

Ozay wrote.......Imagine the roman emperors giving mankind the power to become just like Jesus? Now remember before Jesus death he stayed up all night in a quiet place in prayer and meditation, then he was in the worldiness for forty days and forty nights, do you think he went to the disco with the devil? come now surely you have greater intelligence than this, teacher of teachers who cannot answer simple questions?


>
M. J. Young...... I mentioned "Paul, Augustine, Athanasius, and Tertulian...Wycliff,
> Luther, Hus, and others....", to which you replied:
>
> *****
> I know none of these Saints....
> *****
>
M. J. Young...... How can I take seriously the claims of someone who does not recognize
> the names of the Apostle Paul (who wrote half the books in the New
> Testament), St. Augustine (whose "City of God" saved the church when the
> Roman Empire fell by separating the church from the state), St.
> Athanasius (whose writings include one of the great summations of
> Christian faith, the Athanasian Creed), Tertulian (the greatest
> Christian scholar of the earliest Christian centuries), John Wycliff
> (who fought to bring the Bible into English), Martin Luther (who gave us
> our recognition of the great Solas, only scripture, only faith, only
> grace), John Hus (whose writings bridged the gap from Wycliff to Luther,
> seminal to the great religious awakening we call the Reformation)? You
> have no notion at all what Christianity teaches, despite having read the
> Bible so many times.

Ozay wrote.......Do you think that these poor saints when they went into isolation took a whole library of books with them and by the time they finished reading them they attained saint hood and that they also quoted all the saints that lived and died? there is one other thing you are over looking the political needs of the past popes the emperors of Rome, alll these are factors on why things in the Bible have been changed, are not the dead sea scrolls some proof of this? I tell you I am the living Bible and some where inside you that same Bible exists but you have to get out of your head and out of your ego in order to read it, but it is like asking a rich man to crawl through the eye of a needle with you too much of your life depends on proving to me and yourself that you are correct and the truth that comes from this vessel are wrong.


>
M. J. Young...... As to whether saints create division, it is arguable that you have
> created it by writing to me. You will argue that I created it by
> rejecting your message,

Ozay wrote.......It is NOT MY MESSAGE It is the message I HAD TO ACCEPT BECAUSE THAT TRUTH, THAT MESSAGE WAS GREATER THAN ME, THE EGO HAD TO DIE IN ORDER TO HEAR THAT MESSAGE.


M. J. Young......but the fact is equally so that you have
> rejected mine--and that is the way it is with divisions.

Ozay wrote.......I have offered you the ONE THING THAT CAN UNITE THE WHOLE WORLD AND YOUR EGO REJECTS IT, THEREFORE IT IS EGO MIND THAT IS DIVIDED AND THOSE WHO LIVE THIS WAY WILL ALWAYS BE DIVIDED AS YOU ARE WITH ME, BUT i AM NOT DIVIDED FROM YOU..

M. J. Young......Someone recognizes that the truth has been missed, overlooked, perverted,
> compromised, and he stands up for the truth and is rejected by those who
> do not understand or who have a vested interest in the perverted
> version. You can call the one who stands for the truth divisive, and
> those who stand for the error because they do not recognize the truth
> will do so, believing that they stand for the truth. I can call you
> divisive because you neither know nor care what the message of the
> Christian church has been over the centuries. You can call it divisive,
> but you fail to see the substantive unity.

Ozay wrote.......In everything I have spoken I have explained to you that the nature of mind is divided, and man who lives by mind, ego will always be divided, we are talking not with the heart, but we are talking with the mind, and as proof of my last comment we are still divided, but if your heart was listening then you would not speak from your superior intellect, you would not think, but you would FEEL MY LOVE BY KNOWINGYOU ARE LOVE AND WE ARE THE SAME, AS I DO. therefore knowing this to be truth, who is divided from who in this conversation, who will not listen to there heart, who will not listen to the words of unity, but rather who is quoting from out dated scripture and telling one who has truly had god experience that they are wrong? this is all your mental projections and that is the nature of division, this is the truth, and you can argue but you must know you are wrong deep down. Is it not time for you to let go and find the true nature of yourself along with the true meaning of the Bible written into every mans heart?


>
M. J. Young...... I hope that your experience truly is with The God, but I fear for you.
> The Bible is the only reliable "map" we have of the spiritual realm, and
> you seem woefully lost in discussing that.

Ozay wrote.......It is yourself you should fear for, because you are living in 'BELIEF' and I am not, do not fear for me, fear is of mind and belongs to lower man and animals. Yes a map but not a resting place that is the Bible, time to travel where that maps indicates the destination is, it is nice looking at all those contour lines and all the places to see on the map and imagine them, but actually travelling there is different.


>
> --M. J. Young

FURTHER DISCUSSION WITH TEACHER OF CHRISTIAN TEACHERS

M. J. Young.......In my continuing effort to phase out what I see as a fruitless
> discussion, I will skip most of what you wrote and target a very few points.

Ozay wrote.......And in my continuing effort, in what I see as fruitful disscussion I will always serve the highest truth so that though the ego does not accept and will repress the truth into its lower subconciousness that though it will be hidden away the seed will be planted then one day in the darkness a ray of light will shine, and you will not even know why, for me that is the greatest thing about what I do, there is no lost cause not even one who is so identified as you are to what you have created of your beliefs.


M. J. Young....... You wrote, "...you can not see where I am standing because you have not
> been there and because you speak rather than listen and try to
> understand what I am saying by DIRECT EXPERIENCE."
>
M. J. Young....... I never said I had no direct experience of God. On the contrary, I
> indeed have such experience. The problem is that such experience is
> entirely subjective, and cannot be the basis for any argument concerning
> the reality of God. That is, I know hundreds of people who believe they
> have had direct experiences with God, and their experiences are all
> different enough to cause one to wonder whether they met the same God.
> If we are going to discuss what is true, we can only do so based on
> objective information, of which scripture is the only one we have.


Ozay wrote.......I have had experience of god realisation. In other cultures they call it by different names, yet the direct experience is seen to be the same by one who has experienced it for themselves, these people who have experienced this god realisation will all identify the same features, though they may use different words, yet to understand what they are explaining one can easily identify if one has had that experience for themselves, however there is a group of people who live souly in mind and they only experience via some euphoric state brought on by mind which is quite a simple thing to understand, the power of belief gained in this phenomena which is created merely by reading and then believing, this effect is short lived and has no long term effect where as the true experince has a permanent effect.


>
M. J. Young....... In other words, I could say, "I have met God, and spoken with God, and
> nothing you say is in any way similar to what He told me." That would
> be completely true--and it would be completely worthless as an
> argument. This, then, is why your arguments are completely worthless to
> me: they are based on your experience, and my experience differs. I
> cannot know that your experience is genuine, no matter how sincerely you
> insist that it is. I can only know that my experience seems genuine to
> me, and that yours seems genuine to you. The only way we can get to the
> truth is by examination of the objective data.

Ozay wrote.......If what god is telling you that what he told you is different than what I have been given then it is likely that you fit the category of person that I have just mentioned, it is like I have said I have met people who has had the true experience they are few, yet we recognise each other immeditaly, there are many who are like you, who have convinced themselves intellectually, but when you observe these people in their behaviour, ie in writing and tactics etc like labelling, calling names (Troll) all kinds of behaviour like this shows clearly that person is still living an egoistical life, that is not my opposition that is what you reveal via your actions to a person that has experienced the truth in all its glory, in god realiseation action speak very much louder than your intellectual words, though you do show some degree of control over your lower nature, still you have little or no reasoning capacity outside of what your personality can only identify with, the truth is far beyond your personality and identifying to one small group of people in the world.


>
M. J. Young....... You wrote, "So you see, anything you have to say about what is written
> in the Bible I have already heard it, and I hoped that this you could
> see,..."
>
M. J. Young....... I am impressed with the number of times you have read the Bible. I have
> exceeded that number several times over, and have studied individual
> books under the tutelage of men with far more knowledge about those
> books than I yet have attained. I have read the works of others written
> over the centuries and come to understand their insights into the text
> and how they differ from mine. I have recognized that I do not yet
> understand it all. Indeed, in my most recent efforts to read and
> understand the Greek text, I have been surprised several times by what I
> did not realize I had not understood before.


Ozay wrote.........The reason you have gone past me in the amount of time that you have studied the Bible is because you did not get the last and final message the bible was conveying, that is, you must put the Bible down and do the walking, the Bible is you, and if the Bible is you there is a gosd in you to find without the intellect. It is this pride of knowledge of all this reading you have done that has kept you no better than a heroin addict, you read because it stimulates you to read, to find a new book to smell the freshness of the newly laid out pages, but god realiseation is not in those pages god realiseation is within you, attachment to books is not god realiseation a scholar is not a Saint and never will be a saint, indeed a scholar is some one who can baffle a saint with his superior intellect, yet he will not FOOL the saint, but wors than this a scholar will fool the most important person, he will fool himself, and by this he will fool all his pupils.


>
M. J. Young....... You wrote, "So the whole aim of a scholars life is to understand ALL THE
> GREEK WORDS OF THE BIBLE, that says it all now doesn't it? There is what
> the words really say. How many of your Scholars have actually reached
> Saint hood?>
M. J. Young....... The point of scholarship is to understand what the message of each book
> really is. Understanding the individual words is part of that, because
> books are built of sentences which are built of words.


Ozay wrote.......To know god as a saint one must unlearn everything, that sentecne was not put in the Bible to ignore, yet all sentences in the Bible point you back to this one sentence: Be STILL and KNOW THAT I AM GOD. The man was asked his name, he said :"I AM" this indicates no thought of label, no thought of identity, yet it is the experience of one who has come to true realiseation there is a still state of the mind, and during this still state there is an engulfment, a total loss of the ego self a dissapearnce of the space you occupy, and time stands still, maybe with all your book knowledge you have come accross some saint who has identified this true expericne of god to you but you have over looked it, after you come back from this experience there is a great love, a great compassion within you it is felt permanently as long as you stay with the practice, this feeling will be like a blanket that you pull over you and again your expericne this state of time lessness and no space yet you are the whole universe.


>
M. J. Young....... As to scholars who have achieved sainthood, I don't know how you measure
> either scholarship or sainthood, but I think I would be safe in
> identifying Paul, Augustine, Athanasius, and Tertulian by nearly
> anyone's standards. I would add Wycliff, Luther, Hus, and others whose
> names would be completely unknown to you (Philip Worthington, Marvin
> Wilson, many more), men who are scholars and saints, who to some degree
> became saints through being scholars and became scholars because they
> were saints. Scholarship is not the only path to sainthood, nor does
> sainthood either require or create scholarship, but the two are not
> mutually exclusive and are connected not infrequently.


Ozay wrote.......I know none of these Saints, so I cannot agree or dissagree, but I can say what I know, if those Saints have division, if those Saints agree with some of your ideas: That is you can chose anyone of 20 different interpreations of any truth then I can know for sure that none of these Saints were truly Saints as they would all consolidate each other, if they all have different ideas about truth, they cannot be Saints, which will bring into question the biggest part of the Christian idea of Christianity, that is why it is so fragmented because too many have too much opinion about what the truth is through belief when it should be knowing what the truth is by experience otherwise people should not speak, yet I understand that this grewat hynosis effect where people give themself so much empowerment through belief that they are convinced and will even kill to maintain this belief which is just a belief, not a truth.


>
M. J. Young....... What I attempt to do in my classes is discover what the authors of the
> New Testament were really saying, and thus what Christianity really teaches.

Ozay wrote.......Who qualifies any author that they have the truth, most authors just copy other authors but use their own words, they again are not witnesses to the truth, so this form of teaching has no value, can you not see, if these people you teach go into retreat prayer and meditation then there is some hope that they may distinguishe who speaks the truth, but then they will not need to read anymore because they too will KNOW THE TRUTH, not have any belief of what truth is anymore therefore the addiction to constantly buying new books to stimulate that which cannot be satisfied the hunger that cannot be ended.

>
M. J. Young....... As far as whether I have love for others, or whether I have anything to
> offer others, whether I ought to be giving or taking, you do not know me
> well enough for your opinion to be valid. I'm sorry that you are not
> interested in whatever I have to offer. I have not, I regret to say,
> found anything in what you wrote that I have not heard many times
> before, and that which is true of it I already know.


Ozay wrote.......It is not an oppinion that I have it is experience of realiseation, that knows who has and who hasn't, in the situation because I have the truth, I can say who has and who hasn't,.........Again you have faile to answer the most important question that I have asked you several times and thhat is: WHICH IS THE GREATER TRUTH.....BELIEF OF TRUTH? ........OR.........KNOWING OF TRUTH? Now that you do not answer these very funadamental questions which if answered will come to a proper ending of this discussion ie the truth will have to come out, this you know, and you still resist answering knowing well that this discourse will come to an end the the result that you would have to own up to having an inferior belief system because it is BELIEF and it is not KNOWING, if a man does not know truth then he should be brave enough to accept and admit he does not know the truth.
But if a man keeps hankering to belief and not brave enough to accept he does not KNOW then this trait can only come from his ego and the fear he has of losing the identity that he has spent many years of his life creating, only to accept this has been wasted means that he holds on to a lie and will try to convince others of this lie so that he can consolidate further his own lie through the 'BELIEF' of others, this empowers only the ego because it helps estabalish that false creation called identity.

You could answe that simple question that I have asked and this discourse would come to an end, but because you do not answer it because you are not brave enough to accept the truth then so does this argument as you call it go on, so that these questions are not met that would bring truth into this discussion means the discourse will be on the energy level of a power struggle, that means it is not a matter of coming to the truth for you, but rather it is a matter of out smarting your opponent with your well polished intellect learned from many years of addiction to reading books, the more you read the more you go up in prestige, to know god we have to go the other way, undo, unlearn become still, not to question anymore then the final answer will come in stillness and here the answer is there is NO MORE QUESTIONS TO GOD.

MORE OF THE DISCUSSION OF THE TEACHER OF CHRISTIAN TEACHERS

-M. J. Young....... Thanks again for your note.

Ozay wrote.......And thank you again for your note.

-M. J. Young....... I suppose my real point is that I don't think we're really listening to
> each other.

Ozay wrote.......That is a good point, you see I read the whole English Bible from Genisis to
Revelations 7 times then I read the new testament about 14 times, during a period of time I was in solitary confinement in 1982, I was in isolation at this period for 6 months, while reading the Bible I also practiced prayer and meditation, beside this I eat food and defecated, that was all that I did there was minimal contact with the outside world, eventually day obsorbed into night and night obsorbed into day, time stood still and it was here that I found confirmation of the word of Jesus and all that God has given us in writings.

So you see, anything you have to say about what is written in the Bible I have already heard it, and I hoped that this you could see, further I wsihed to point out to you that there was some thing much greater than the Holy Bible, it was at this point we lost communication, that is because you could not take that leap of faith and go beyond your intellect, at this point you could not hear anything I said, but indeed I was hearing you and I could see where you were standing, you can not see where I am standing because you have not been there and because you speak rather than listen and try to understand what I am saying by DIRECT EXPERIENCE.


--M. J. Young.......You have as much as said that my scholarly approach to the
> study of scripture is a waste of time and effort.

Ozay wrote.......You see you still cannot see clearly the meaning of what I say, again I will try to make it more clear. Yes read the Bible, then understand where it is directing you, then LET THE BIBLE GO and start walking, make the journey to yourself, you will never know god until you do this, the Bible has become your obstacle on that road, you have stayed on the bus instead of getting off at the arrival point.
TO be identifying as a scholar to have pride as a scholar is not what Jesus taught us.

--M. J. Young.......I have said that your subjectivity strikes me as a dangerous quicksand foundation for any
> assertion of knowledge of the truth. The outcome is we each discount
> most of what the other says,

Ozay wrote.......Again I will remind you about this what you call subjectivity which you still have not intergrated into your understanding, everything filtered through mind is subjective, THAT IS NUMBER ONE TRUTH, and here was the question that puts everything you understand into balance, and may I remind you, you still have not answered it because if you did that would mean you would have to step down in this discussion, and that question again I remind you is this:............. WHAT IS THE GREATER TRUTH.......BELIEF OF TRUTH?.........OR........KNOWING TRUTH? In this simple exercise of asking and answering these questions then you will know you have been on the wrong track all of your Christian life. And to come to this question and answer is no small task because you have built up your whole life, your whole personality and all its traits on the wrong system BELIEF OF TRUTH. THIS IS WHY IT IS YOU WHO HAS BUILT HIS HOUSE ON THE SAND, and many like you, I have come to help you and others, but if the intelligent cannot see these simple truths then what hope is there for the rest, I hope my energy is not wasted on you, I make effort for you to see this because you are misleading many with your mind frame..


--M. J. Young.......each having concluded that the other has
> not learned "enough" in a way that he finds reliable.

Ozay wrote.......It is like this, a teenager believes he has all the answers and everyone else is wrong they have a holier than thou attitude often, no one knows better than what they do.....Indeed this is correct for them, why? Because they have not experience life and the years of life to KNOW what grown ups know. Yet when they become grown up they have all but lost this attitude, because now they have experienced more of the truth in life and now are more enriched than they were when they were teenagers they look back and see how much they did not know, then they look in the here and now and think they know much more, then another tens years they look back ten years and say they know more now than they did ten years ago, and so we call this the egos way, because it does not allow you to learn outside of the boundary lines of pain, if you were free from this then you would listen to my words and question then understand then you would do the walking in the right direction, you would not argue with me but merely have a desire to find the truth it is the desire to maintain an identity that is the root cause of this artificial phenomena.


>

--M. J. Young....... I teach a study via my cgg review group which carefully examines the
> meaning of the Greek words, the grammatical structure of the statements,
> the flow of the arguments presented in the New Testament books as
> written.

Ozay wrote........You spend so much time examining the meaning of a word yet how much time do you devout into understanding how you work, it is here that you fall short in this dicussion otherwise we would not have this trouble of communicating the truth, yes understand, but is an answer gives you 20 different interpretations it is time to stop then go inside and find the experience of the interpretations yourself, it is only this way will you move from beleif and into knowing, there are NO MORE ARGUMENTS, ARGUMENTS WILL ALWAYS HAPPEN WHEN YOU LIVE IN BELIEF.


--M. J. Young.......I think that you would have no interest in such a study; you
> would regard it a scholarly waste of time and effort, an attempt to
> obfuscate what the Bible really means.


Ozay wrote.......How many time must I tell you, still you revert back to this, your ideal, because it is you, you want everyone to become like this a scholar of belief. Each time I read the Bible right through out of the 7 I have mentioned above I came to a new understanding, the final time I read that bible I came to a complete understanding, that the Bible was not a story of just a singular race of chosen people, but rather it was a story of what goes on in one man, division, there is birth there is life there is death, but to see the whole Bible as a single life of a single person reflects that you have seen beyond division, if you are still reading the Bible you are still stuck in division, you see the truths are more subjective than you can even begin to imagine, if you cannot see I have gone beyond words, then again it is a reflection of where you stand on your journey, it also means with such stubborn attitude that I have to consider my purpose in all of this situation in life also, for my aim has been for a long time to end this division and secularism created by all these useless belief systems and bring humanity together, yet where it should be met with open arms it is met with fierce resistance, yes I understand why, and yes I understand the mechanics of why, yet ego is so strong the higher up the ladder of success that individuals are and it is with such people that trust of the many lie, you will walk away from this discourse and vindicate everything you have said because you are proud and stubborn to go any further than your mind and ego.


--M. J. Young....... I, on the other hand, regard it
> as the best way to determine what it is the Bible really says.

Ozay wrote.......So the whole aim of a scholars life is to understand ALL THE GREEK WORDS OF THE BIBLE, that says it all now doesn't it? There is what the words really say. How many of your Scholars have actually reached Saint hood? after all the Saints are the ones who are accepted as the ones that truly "KNOW" yet the scholars are the ones who tell you to BELIEVE them....?????? Do you see the pointlessness of your ergument, if you were a Saint I can tell you, you would see everything I am saying as the truth.



--M. J. Young.......I read your comments to me and they really come across as if you are claiming
> to be a prophet elevated above the Bible, that what you know you know
> because God told you directly, and you are certain that the Bible must
> agree with that knowledge even if in the view of those who have studied
> it carefully it says something different.

Ozay wrote.......Few of the scholars of the time of Jesus listened to what he had to say, indeed it was with the help of the scholars that Jesus was put up on the cross, and that is exactly what you are doing here...YOU WHO CLAIM TO BE KING OF THE JEWS. And many of the likes of such people wanted to stone him to death for speaking the truth, because Jesus's truth said there scholarly belief was wrong, as I am saying to you. You see for these people what I am saying and how I am saying it is arrogance beyond accepted belief, and for Jesus or anyone who has experienced this truth, it is just a "simple" truth, again your interpretation does not reflect where I stand or where I am coming from but your interpretation reflect where you are standing. There are however one or two things in the Bible that has been left out and slightly altered, you will not be able to see these things until you have gone inside yourself and identified the truth there to confirm the truth of the bible or to deny it, yet even here you will understand the reasonableness of why things have been changed, dues to ignorant understandings of the masses.


>

--M. J. Young....... I would say that we are unable to communicate about the subject which is
> central to our discussion; it is probably not worth pursuing the
> discussion further.


Ozay wrote.......if you are only going to translate Greek words into English what good will that do my soul or yours? If you are only going to fill my head with data, what good is that for my heart or yours? If you are only going to be a scholar and a teacher what good is that for uniting me and you when one is less and the other is deemed higher, I Gods world the least will become the greater and the greater must become the least, it is here where more or less must be taken out of communication, when you speak truth I will be on that road because i was always on that road and waiting for you, but if it is about HOW much you know and how little I know, where is god and where is love inb all of this, and again if love is only interpretated in the mind there is no FEELING in that love what worth is this love to me, who has tasted the spark of divine love? Therefore who should be giving and who should be taking, who should be sharing? What stops this great love here?


Kindest regards
Ozay rinpoche