FURTHER DISCUSSION WITH TEACHER OF CHRISTIAN TEACHERS

M. J. Young.......In my continuing effort to phase out what I see as a fruitless
> discussion, I will skip most of what you wrote and target a very few points.

Ozay wrote.......And in my continuing effort, in what I see as fruitful disscussion I will always serve the highest truth so that though the ego does not accept and will repress the truth into its lower subconciousness that though it will be hidden away the seed will be planted then one day in the darkness a ray of light will shine, and you will not even know why, for me that is the greatest thing about what I do, there is no lost cause not even one who is so identified as you are to what you have created of your beliefs.


M. J. Young....... You wrote, "...you can not see where I am standing because you have not
> been there and because you speak rather than listen and try to
> understand what I am saying by DIRECT EXPERIENCE."
>
M. J. Young....... I never said I had no direct experience of God. On the contrary, I
> indeed have such experience. The problem is that such experience is
> entirely subjective, and cannot be the basis for any argument concerning
> the reality of God. That is, I know hundreds of people who believe they
> have had direct experiences with God, and their experiences are all
> different enough to cause one to wonder whether they met the same God.
> If we are going to discuss what is true, we can only do so based on
> objective information, of which scripture is the only one we have.


Ozay wrote.......I have had experience of god realisation. In other cultures they call it by different names, yet the direct experience is seen to be the same by one who has experienced it for themselves, these people who have experienced this god realisation will all identify the same features, though they may use different words, yet to understand what they are explaining one can easily identify if one has had that experience for themselves, however there is a group of people who live souly in mind and they only experience via some euphoric state brought on by mind which is quite a simple thing to understand, the power of belief gained in this phenomena which is created merely by reading and then believing, this effect is short lived and has no long term effect where as the true experince has a permanent effect.


>
M. J. Young....... In other words, I could say, "I have met God, and spoken with God, and
> nothing you say is in any way similar to what He told me." That would
> be completely true--and it would be completely worthless as an
> argument. This, then, is why your arguments are completely worthless to
> me: they are based on your experience, and my experience differs. I
> cannot know that your experience is genuine, no matter how sincerely you
> insist that it is. I can only know that my experience seems genuine to
> me, and that yours seems genuine to you. The only way we can get to the
> truth is by examination of the objective data.

Ozay wrote.......If what god is telling you that what he told you is different than what I have been given then it is likely that you fit the category of person that I have just mentioned, it is like I have said I have met people who has had the true experience they are few, yet we recognise each other immeditaly, there are many who are like you, who have convinced themselves intellectually, but when you observe these people in their behaviour, ie in writing and tactics etc like labelling, calling names (Troll) all kinds of behaviour like this shows clearly that person is still living an egoistical life, that is not my opposition that is what you reveal via your actions to a person that has experienced the truth in all its glory, in god realiseation action speak very much louder than your intellectual words, though you do show some degree of control over your lower nature, still you have little or no reasoning capacity outside of what your personality can only identify with, the truth is far beyond your personality and identifying to one small group of people in the world.


>
M. J. Young....... You wrote, "So you see, anything you have to say about what is written
> in the Bible I have already heard it, and I hoped that this you could
> see,..."
>
M. J. Young....... I am impressed with the number of times you have read the Bible. I have
> exceeded that number several times over, and have studied individual
> books under the tutelage of men with far more knowledge about those
> books than I yet have attained. I have read the works of others written
> over the centuries and come to understand their insights into the text
> and how they differ from mine. I have recognized that I do not yet
> understand it all. Indeed, in my most recent efforts to read and
> understand the Greek text, I have been surprised several times by what I
> did not realize I had not understood before.


Ozay wrote.........The reason you have gone past me in the amount of time that you have studied the Bible is because you did not get the last and final message the bible was conveying, that is, you must put the Bible down and do the walking, the Bible is you, and if the Bible is you there is a gosd in you to find without the intellect. It is this pride of knowledge of all this reading you have done that has kept you no better than a heroin addict, you read because it stimulates you to read, to find a new book to smell the freshness of the newly laid out pages, but god realiseation is not in those pages god realiseation is within you, attachment to books is not god realiseation a scholar is not a Saint and never will be a saint, indeed a scholar is some one who can baffle a saint with his superior intellect, yet he will not FOOL the saint, but wors than this a scholar will fool the most important person, he will fool himself, and by this he will fool all his pupils.


>
M. J. Young....... You wrote, "So the whole aim of a scholars life is to understand ALL THE
> GREEK WORDS OF THE BIBLE, that says it all now doesn't it? There is what
> the words really say. How many of your Scholars have actually reached
> Saint hood?>
M. J. Young....... The point of scholarship is to understand what the message of each book
> really is. Understanding the individual words is part of that, because
> books are built of sentences which are built of words.


Ozay wrote.......To know god as a saint one must unlearn everything, that sentecne was not put in the Bible to ignore, yet all sentences in the Bible point you back to this one sentence: Be STILL and KNOW THAT I AM GOD. The man was asked his name, he said :"I AM" this indicates no thought of label, no thought of identity, yet it is the experience of one who has come to true realiseation there is a still state of the mind, and during this still state there is an engulfment, a total loss of the ego self a dissapearnce of the space you occupy, and time stands still, maybe with all your book knowledge you have come accross some saint who has identified this true expericne of god to you but you have over looked it, after you come back from this experience there is a great love, a great compassion within you it is felt permanently as long as you stay with the practice, this feeling will be like a blanket that you pull over you and again your expericne this state of time lessness and no space yet you are the whole universe.


>
M. J. Young....... As to scholars who have achieved sainthood, I don't know how you measure
> either scholarship or sainthood, but I think I would be safe in
> identifying Paul, Augustine, Athanasius, and Tertulian by nearly
> anyone's standards. I would add Wycliff, Luther, Hus, and others whose
> names would be completely unknown to you (Philip Worthington, Marvin
> Wilson, many more), men who are scholars and saints, who to some degree
> became saints through being scholars and became scholars because they
> were saints. Scholarship is not the only path to sainthood, nor does
> sainthood either require or create scholarship, but the two are not
> mutually exclusive and are connected not infrequently.


Ozay wrote.......I know none of these Saints, so I cannot agree or dissagree, but I can say what I know, if those Saints have division, if those Saints agree with some of your ideas: That is you can chose anyone of 20 different interpreations of any truth then I can know for sure that none of these Saints were truly Saints as they would all consolidate each other, if they all have different ideas about truth, they cannot be Saints, which will bring into question the biggest part of the Christian idea of Christianity, that is why it is so fragmented because too many have too much opinion about what the truth is through belief when it should be knowing what the truth is by experience otherwise people should not speak, yet I understand that this grewat hynosis effect where people give themself so much empowerment through belief that they are convinced and will even kill to maintain this belief which is just a belief, not a truth.


>
M. J. Young....... What I attempt to do in my classes is discover what the authors of the
> New Testament were really saying, and thus what Christianity really teaches.

Ozay wrote.......Who qualifies any author that they have the truth, most authors just copy other authors but use their own words, they again are not witnesses to the truth, so this form of teaching has no value, can you not see, if these people you teach go into retreat prayer and meditation then there is some hope that they may distinguishe who speaks the truth, but then they will not need to read anymore because they too will KNOW THE TRUTH, not have any belief of what truth is anymore therefore the addiction to constantly buying new books to stimulate that which cannot be satisfied the hunger that cannot be ended.

>
M. J. Young....... As far as whether I have love for others, or whether I have anything to
> offer others, whether I ought to be giving or taking, you do not know me
> well enough for your opinion to be valid. I'm sorry that you are not
> interested in whatever I have to offer. I have not, I regret to say,
> found anything in what you wrote that I have not heard many times
> before, and that which is true of it I already know.


Ozay wrote.......It is not an oppinion that I have it is experience of realiseation, that knows who has and who hasn't, in the situation because I have the truth, I can say who has and who hasn't,.........Again you have faile to answer the most important question that I have asked you several times and thhat is: WHICH IS THE GREATER TRUTH.....BELIEF OF TRUTH? ........OR.........KNOWING OF TRUTH? Now that you do not answer these very funadamental questions which if answered will come to a proper ending of this discussion ie the truth will have to come out, this you know, and you still resist answering knowing well that this discourse will come to an end the the result that you would have to own up to having an inferior belief system because it is BELIEF and it is not KNOWING, if a man does not know truth then he should be brave enough to accept and admit he does not know the truth.
But if a man keeps hankering to belief and not brave enough to accept he does not KNOW then this trait can only come from his ego and the fear he has of losing the identity that he has spent many years of his life creating, only to accept this has been wasted means that he holds on to a lie and will try to convince others of this lie so that he can consolidate further his own lie through the 'BELIEF' of others, this empowers only the ego because it helps estabalish that false creation called identity.

You could answe that simple question that I have asked and this discourse would come to an end, but because you do not answer it because you are not brave enough to accept the truth then so does this argument as you call it go on, so that these questions are not met that would bring truth into this discussion means the discourse will be on the energy level of a power struggle, that means it is not a matter of coming to the truth for you, but rather it is a matter of out smarting your opponent with your well polished intellect learned from many years of addiction to reading books, the more you read the more you go up in prestige, to know god we have to go the other way, undo, unlearn become still, not to question anymore then the final answer will come in stillness and here the answer is there is NO MORE QUESTIONS TO GOD.