DISCUSSION WITH TEACHER OF CHRISTIAN TEACHER CONTINUED....

M. J. Young....... We are so far apart from each other we are not even using the same words
> to have the same meaning.

Ozay wrote.......Then you should question my meaning of the words that I use, so that we can understand, so far I have not seen this with you, and for me I have not felt a need to question specific word meanings, but I will keep an eye out for this, as one wrong meaning of any one word can take you miles away from the destination you hope to reach remember?, time, history, politics, translation from one language to another, even from one generation to another generation, here you do not realise that you have shot the whole idea of belief in the foot already, and I tell you there is a way to the truth of Jesus that is an unchangeable truth.

>
M. J. Young....... You say you do not believe anything, but only know things. I say you do
> not know anything but only believe things.

Ozay wrote.......OK lets see what you have come to this sounds as if you have started to reason from mind rather than quote from book, this to me is progress, on your behalf, teacher of teachers of the Christian faith.

>
M. J. Young....... That is, you might tell me, do you know that Barrack Obama is President
> of the United States? I assert that you cannot know that, you can only
> believe it--no matter what your experience, at some point you had to
> trust that someone was telling you the truth.


Ozay wrote.......This I can say about Barrack Obama President of the USA, I am told he is some kind of liberator for the people of America who are ethnic, I am told he is a politician, I am told he is for the good of humanity, I am told that he is controlled by the illuminati, and I am told that he is a puppet, I am told he will do great things, and then I am told that he has done nothing great. I am told that he is the most powerful man in the USA and the world, yet again I am told there is a black government that controls the world, I am told that he is for the betterment of peoples lives, but when I look there are still poor people.
Yet when I look at the TV from where I first heard his name, I see people who want me to play the game of belief for corrupt and political purposes, even the news media are not reliable for truth.

So are you telling me that I have to 'BELIEVE' anything I hear? Truth tells me "NO" I do not have to believe why should I 'BELIEVE" My mind is given to me in order to survive, therefore it is given that the illusion of power money and corruption though it is an illusion I must understand this illusion and how the illusion of man can shorten and end my life, it is here I have to play the game, to play my role in this great illusion so that life may be preserved and that other beings along with my self may have time to become god realised.

Therefore do I believe Obama is real? first is his person real? This truth I know: his name is no more real than my name, but I will accept it for administration so that this life can be prolonged. His personality is this real? No his personality is not real, because it is a creation from mind, it is created and it is uncreated that truth I "KNOW" because I have come to that truth in myself, and that self that you call Obama is my brother, this I "KNOW" also because I have come in contact with the divine spark of life that I AM, and this DIVINE SPARK THAT I AM IN IN ALL LIFE FORMS. Do I accept the Obama that others have created from their minds? No how can that Obama be true, it is just an image an identity, that identity is not real, neither is your nor mine, yet what is real is the divine spark of life that is in Obama, that is in you, that is in me, and that is the divine spark that Jesus spoke of, so you see I have no 'BELIEF' only truth that is in the self and universal.



M. J. Young.......Now, in this particular case you can say that there are a lot of people telling you the same
> thing; but even if you met someone who said "I am Barrack Obama, and I
> am President of the United States," and he was surrounded by severe
> looking men in dark suits who said, "We are the Secret Service assigned
> to protect President Obama," you would not KNOW that Barrack Obama was
> President of the United States; you would only BELIEVE this.

Ozay wrote.......As the lord Jesus said give Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar and give god what belongs to god. In this discussion you have brought two opposites together, that is materiality and spirituality. Screen play is set, all the actors are given their scripts that they must learn to play, each actor takes on his role enthusiastically, indeed they become so enthusiastic most of these actors that when they are off stage they still keep playing the role, they have been given new names but those names are false, they have been given different roles to play from each other, but they are just roles nothing else. When the play has finished then it is time to go home.
Therefore I say this: Why do you ask me to 'BELIEVE' the play when I "KNOW" it is a role? That is the truth, not a belief.

>
M. J. Young....... You do not know that the woman who claims to be your mother actually is;
> you only know that she and others told you so, and you trusted them.
> You believe that she is your mother.

Ozay wrote.......In this life she was given the role to play as my mother, but beyond her body and beyond her mind she is some thing that is much greater than just my mother, she is a child of God, she is the small drop divine spark of life, THAT I AM, and that "I KNOW" and God (Divine great light) is the great sea from whence she and myself and your self fell from,,and "THAT I AM AND THAT I KNOW".

>
M. J. Young.......You cannot seem to understand that real knowledge is the most difficult
> thing to obtain in all the universe. Descartes nearly despaired of
> knowing anything at all, and then realized that there was only one thing
> he knew of his own knowledge, and that was that someone existed who was
> capable of wondering whether someone existed, and that someone was himself.

Ozay wrote.......Real knowledge is obtainable in the self, and today it is even given by scientists what some had already come to and that is mankind are made of Star stuff, what is in is outer and that is a "TRUTH THAT I HAVE IDENTIFIED AND I THEREFORE KNOW"
Was it not Descartes who once said: "I think so therefore I am"
This one sentence is true and it is not true, because when man thinks, he man has created and illusion of self and in this self he has created many I's or identities, these mind concepts made man fall into a kind of sleep and a dreaming state with individual concepts of reality due to the dual nature of the opposing opposites of mind. Yet when man goes beyond mind and beyond all the dueal concepts there is a unity and a oneness with the great divine life force also called God this is singular yet whole and it is eternity, this is the I AM that is without illusion for it is the creator and it comes before the illusions.
What Descartes should have really quoted and he would have been more accurate is this...I THINK SO THEREFORE I AM NOT, BUT AN ILLUSION. HE DID NOT COME TO WHO THAT SELF WAS THAT STOOD BEHIND THE SELF (MIND) AND THAT SELF IS WHAT YOU CALL JESUS AND GOD.


>
M. J. Young....... Beyond that, you can only trust that what has been told or shown you by
> others is true. Even if you believe you have experienced it, it is
> still within the realm of possibility that you have been deceived by
> someone clever and/or powerful enough to manipulate your experiences.

Ozay wrote.......You can be decieved only in mind, yet if some one gives you the map and tells you which way to go, then you take the map and you follow the instuction, then you get there or you do not, a sign to know if you have got there is this: ALL BELIEFS FALL AWAY AND TRUTH REPLACES IT.

>
M. J. Young....... So I say you cannot know anything; you can only believe.

Ozay wrote.......I say, only those who have not travelled this journey in the way Christ did cannot "KNOW" it is only them who hold belief and it is only them who do not make the effort to "KNOW" Though I do accept there are those few who have made this journey and fell away from belief, into "KNOW THE WAY OF TRUTH". But those who quote from books only have 'BELEIFS'


>
M. J. Young....... You say you have "NO ARGUMENTS". Yet you continue to argue. Obviously
> whatever you mean by arguments is entirely different from what I mean by
> arguments. An argument is a statement that arranges evidence with the
> intention of proving a point so as to change the position or belief of
> another person. Do you deny that you have been attempting to sway what
> I think to match what you think? Anything you say that has that purpose
> is itself an argument. If it is not an argument, then it is a
> meaningless string of words to no purpose, or a statement of personal
> belief not intended to have any impact on anyone else.


Ozay wrote.......You write, I write, your aim is? my aim is? If there is argument for you, that is for you to beleive. My aim is to debate and for you to come to the truth, and the way I do this debate is to way lay your demons by pointing them out, therefore what I do is reveal the truth, that is NOT ARGUMENT, but for you it can be anything because you have 'BELIEF' your whole life is made from this unevolved state. But I tell you there is a system where belief can be used in a real way, so I am not against belief in the scientific way that I know it, but I am against belief as it is used by the unenlightened where much evil is perpetuated because of it, and you are in an important position teacher of Christian teachers. I come to establish true faith in Jesus words.

>
M. J. Young....... Interestingly, I was studying Colossians 1:9f this morning, and found
> that the word there used for "knowledge"--twice--specifically meant
> intellectual comprehension, first of God's will and second of Him
> Himself. I also note that another word in those two verses sometimes
> rendered "understanding" literally means putting things together in your
> mind to reach logical conclusions.

Ozay wrote.......That is good...... "intellectual comprehension" That is how I found my way to god in self, I found that mental concepts and beliefs were forms of imprisonment, then by using logic and reasoning there would be a release, from each individual prison, everything that was thought and believed was undone in this way, as we are doing in this discussion, but this can only be done correctly when one uses total honesty and kicks out what cannot be proven, it is a humbling thing when you come to the truth of who you truly are in this way..


>
M. J. Young....... Paul obviously embraced the intellectual pursuit of understanding God.
> It was not the only aspect he embraced or promoted, but he did not
> reject it. You, on the other hand, reject anything that contradicts
> you, no matter the source. Again, I choose to believe Paul over Ozay.
> I am much better persuaded that Paul actually met God in Jesus Christ
> and managed to explain it accurately.


Ozay wrote.......The intellectual pursuit when carried out in the correct way with total honesty and no belief will eventually teach you 3 things in all of your life and this is what the whole thing boils down to (1) TO "UNDERSTAND" (2) TO "ACCEPT" WHAT YOU COME TO UNDERSTAND BY WAY OF TRUTH. (3) MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL "TO LET GO". Everything in life depends on these 3 rules, and a good reasoning ability will tell you that, eventually that process will lead you to the ultimate truth, there is "NOTHING" yet here you embrace the wholeness of reality and find that you are a divine life force a divine human being, here you will tap into great compassion a great love from self of self and toward the whole of creation.
Did Paul ask you to believe him and if he or Jesus did, I will say there is more to this than meets your eyes, and I will tell you also I have "NEVER ONCE ASKED YOU TO BELIEVE ME" Indeed all the time I have been constantly telling you "NOT TO BELIEVE" That means I am asking not to believe me not to believe Jesus in the wrong way, but what I have been saying all along IS THIS: TAKE THE JOURNEY YOURSELF AND FIND OUT" so how come you a self confessed intelligent teacher of teachers have still not be able to absorb this information what is it that blocks you? it is called identity, ego too much mind.


>
> As to your suggestion that politics changed what the Bible said, I have
> two answers.
>
> The first is that I have at hand a textual commentary that compares the
> hundreds of ancient copies and translations of the New Testament in an
> effort to determine the actual original text of each book it contains,
> and I am quite aware of how amazingly close we are to that original.
> The sort of tampering you suggest has been attempted, but because
> already at the dawn of the second century writers all over the world
> were quoting the text (and we have many of those writings) and copies
> and translations had spread throughout the known world, all such
> attempts are horribly obvious. Our current copies of the New Testament
> are so well documented that any claim of tampering or inaccuracy is
> ludicrous.

Ozay wrote.......When you have found God and I can tell you the Bible is good as it is, why can I say that Because I used it, but I will also tell you when you do find god in yourself then it will be a natural thing for you to be able to identify where the Bible has been tampered with, only I can know that, and only those who have gone that way can know that, and there is one other vital flaw you have not considered besides the problem of translation different meaning of words in any one time period etc etc that is this:
Jesus was the Son of God how long after his death was everything written down? quite some time I gather. But here is my point A man can become god realised then the man standing next to him wishes to write it down, you have to understand that godrealiseation is without mind it is therefore without words, it is a happening an experience of the devine.
Now consider a man come back and tells the man standing next to him this experience, an experience the man next to him never had and probablt will never have. he writes it down, that is like a man who has seen a great light telling a man who has only seen darkness his interpretation will always be wrong, because he who has written has not seen that light. That is a fact.

Try asking a man who has been blind all his life to explain what colour is, he will dictate some thing he has been told, but he and others like him will not have the slightest idea of what colour truly is, there can only be fantasy and imaginaing and 'BELIEF'


>
M. J. Young....... The second is that if what you say is so, that the New Testament is not
> reliable, then nothing is--least of all the word of a man who is a
> stranger to me who thinks he has exclusive knowledge.

Ozay wrote.......That is some thing I have been saying all the time, do you see, even some one like you can come to a truth, however minor that truth is, but it is a starting point, again I remind you, you have to go there and find the truth for yourself, I cannot make you god realised only you can do that for yourself, but first you have to LET GO of your mothers breasts, ie intellect and belief and then follow the way that is pointed out to you.


M. J. Young.......There have been people like you since the dawn of time, all claiming to have some direct
> revelation and experiential knowledge, and they have all given different
> versions of what they claimed to be the truth.

Ozay wrote......I will tell you this: I am not the truth, the truth is beyond this what is communicating, but I "KNOW" truth again I am not asking you to believe anything I say, only trial and error will give you the truth I have, 'BELIEF' will not, I cannot give it to you, you give it to yourself.

M. J. Young....... I am certainly not about
> to believe something Ozay Rinpoche writes over something Paul of Tarsus
> writes, particularly when Paul of Tarsus agrees with Peter of Galilee
> and John of Galilee and Luke of Macedonia and James the Brother of the
> Lord and Jude the Brother of James, and several others. Ozay, you are
> outnumbered, outclassed, and out-thought. I'm sorry that I cannot
> accept what you are so persuaded by your experience is truth, but I
> cannot find any reason to suppose that some spirit who is not God has
> taken advantage of your sincere desire to experience something special
> and lured you into a lie.


Ozay wrote........Where has any lie came through this vessel? To make allegations that one is a liar then one must be specific about the lie that is being spoken, otherwise your information comes from the dark side, it comes from the lie that you are, that is it comes from an ego, an identity struggling to keep survival, but it is a lie and innately it knows its own lie, and that is why it cannot stay logical, it needs dark forces to consolitdate its lie, a lie can only concolidate a lie.
No my brother I am not outnumbered at all I am unified in one, in all those names you mentioned I am in them and they are all in me how can I be out numbered there also needs to be a war, there also needs to be division I am none of these things, it is only you who percieves this, because that is all you are permitted to percive due to the nature of your mind, mind is divided it is not unified the way god is.

>
M. J. Young....... I could be wrong, and I always do admit that I could be wrong; but I do
> know that Paul and Peter and James and John and Jude and the others are
> right, and to the degree that what you wrote disagrees with what they
> wrote, you must be wrong.


Ozay wrote.......You are not wrong, only if you believe you are wrong, You missed out Thomas, and you missed out Judas, these disciples were as important as the rest of them, in fact you could say that Judas was the greatest of all disciples, because he truly believed Jesus was Messiah one may 'BELIEVE' and thought he could make 100 gold coins and better the cause of the purse, after all the Messiah was capable of supernatural feats, he was seen by his disciples to have walked across the water and such things as this, could this not be demonstration of his 'BELIEF' in miracles, and to back up Judas's purity after Jesus was taken and crucified, did Judas not Kill himself because of what had happened. Not even Peter did this for he deserted Jesus at the second Crocking of the cock.
And what of Thomas? many think that he was not a good disciple because he would not fall into belief without first putting his hand into the wound of Jesus, but then what? He did not need any belief system after this, all of Jesus's disciples stand for all of humanity and the passing of time and the changes invoked by each generation, now it is time for Thomas generation, if the teachings of the church does not see this then it stands the risk of fading away as it is already seen to be doing today. I am not taking away but I am adding to Jesus.

>
M. J. Young....... I appreciate your continued expressions of concern for me. I continue
> to have genuine concern for you, but recognize that it would be of
> little use to continue trying to explain to you why I believe what I
> believe--or, in the words you would prefer, how I know what I know,
> which means the same thing.


Ozay wrote........You do not have concern for me, at all points in this discussion your concern has been mostly based of your need to consolidate your identity and how you identify as a scholar this has been the main focus of your discussion, that concern from you for me is an empty suggestion, though my concern is not just for you and how you do not understand the truth of Jesus but also those who come after you and ultimately in modern times because of this trait of negative belief and positive belief ultimately the end of the Christian church and what it stands for.
>