Discussion with a young Christian.

Hi Joshua
Thank you for your post, I know you are a young man and at an impressionable time in your life, I try to take this into consideration when I write this post for you, so when you read this do not take anything personal, in this discourse, we speak and analyse with words and reasoning a way to come to the truth, it may mean that we have to let go of long held beliefs, which we should not identify our person to, after all, are you 1 single thought? or even a billion thoughts? your thoughts will come and go, but that some thing that you are will be permanent, this permanence is that which stands behind all your thoughts and is still.

I hope this will help us all, please respond back with as much reason as you mind can configure for me it is important that young ones like you should have an open opportunity to come into such debates, I take my hat off to you for having such courage, but try to be impersonal if you are going to take part, this is not about you and it is not about me, it is about finding truth through debate and high reasoning, and be free to move from one idea to another if an idea does not work for you due to my questioning or anyone else's, here is my response to your post, good luck:

Joshua wrote.......We can not find truth by experience or feelings because if that was true we would all claim contradictory truths because we would all have different experiences and feellings.

Ozay wrote........Even the Christians are contradicting each other, that is why you have so many different groups of Christians, you need to do your home work before you speak on that.
If I get burned by a fire that is my sense of feeling it hurts, if I have divine love that too is my sense of FEELING, those things I can share as being the same as yours. BUT YOUR BELIEF, CAN BE ANYTHING FROM STRANGE TO PROFOUND TO TOTAL LUNACY, AND THAT IS WHERE HUMANITY DIVIDES AND DIVISION CREATES "WAR" IF THERE WERE NO SIDES THERE WOULD BE NO WAR AND NO DIFFERENT RELIGIONS, There is experience that goes beyond mind, and therefore it is not fixed in belief, belief is of mind, but in experience and experiencing truth then becomes: "KNOWING".


Joshua wrote......Truth is truth and remains the same no matter what people experience or feel.

Ozay wrote.......You need to understand what you are saying here Joshua, if my leg is cut off that is an experience that will stay with me all my life, because I have no leg to prove it, when I experience god it is just the same way my mind has been amputated from my body and that experience will stay with me all my life, as it has done, then I AM THAT.

Joshua wrote......Our world may be chaotic and doesnt make sense but the spiritual world is not...its a place of order. If you experience god or whatever one way and I experience it in a different way we both cldnt be right.

Ozay wrote....If we experience god then it can only be the same thing, it is only mental interpretation or beliefs that filters it into all kinds of different things with different meanings, for example; we can both look at the colour red, you will say it is blue I may say its grey, yet we have both EXPERIENCED the same visual phenomena but our interpretations are different, Hindus call it ENLIGHTENMENT Christians call it GOD REALISATION, TIBETANS CALL IT SAMAHDI BUT IT IS THE SAME EXPERIENCE.

Joshua wrote...... Experience gives us nothing wen it comes to things spiritual.

Ozay wrote......If you have no experiences then what is there to bring you back to anything? Including things spiritual..."THINGS" (Has to be your experience) SPIRITUAL. The taste of food is your sense of taste which is an experience when it happens, the smell of a rose is an experience as it is happening, to hold your lover in your arms is an experience as it is happening, then it is gone, so you try to recreate that experience over and over, knowing GOD is permanently in the very moment always that is an experience, instead of chasing after the experience in various externalised objects.

Joshua wrote...... Why do you say I have to get out of belief? Besides the short mention that I lean more twords kabbalah what do u know about what I believe.

Ozay wrote.....If you want to become the best human being you can and evolve pass this what you referred to chaos of the world then you chose a some thing that rather than divides you from your brothers sisters and parents, you must chose a some thing that brings you together with your brothers sisters and parents and pursue that ideal, and not to see them and their belief, with us and our beliefs, and there by dividing you from them, we dont like them because they believe this, but we like us because we believe that.
Why do you think people find it easier to love animals more than humans? an animal has no belief system and is pure of mind. LOVE is not a religion and it is not dividing humanity by giving each race a separate name, LOVE is an experience that unites humanity without BELIEF.


Joshua wrote...... Not only that but truth is not a buffet you can not pick and choose what u want to b truh n what u dont.

Ozay wrote.......That is correct, but you also have to know the difference between TRUTH, AND BELIEF, a good scientist will have that ability clearly defined, but a person living in ignorance will not, or a person who identifies to a belief system will not.

Joshua wrote...... Anyways all I was trying to say was that the bible itself does not teach that. If we were to interpret those verses the way you did it would contradict many other passages in the OT.

Ozay wrote.......If it contradicts the old Testament then it does who are we to deny it if it is there in black and white?Go back and read it what I posted you will see very clearly that it is stating man has the ability to become sons of god, now you can either live in denial, as many before you have done or you can accept that it is meaning what it is saying, and I can tell you, I KNOW IT IS THE TRUTH, BY EXPERIENCE, and as Melanie also pointed out to you, this means that the priests lose their hold on power.
Where ever there is man there is corruption, remember that because the older you will get the more you will see this, and you will either fall into it yourself unknowingly, or you will become brave and free from this brainwash, you will be the greatest conformist to the truth if you can be brave, but you will be classed as a rebel of society if you conform to the truth, and not belief.

Joshua wrote.......The bible tlks about us being changed and becoming songs of God but it also says what what we will become has not yet been revealed......as in we do not know yet..and if we dont know that means either do u....that is if ur going by the christian bible.

Ozay wrote.......Songs of God is all we need for now, because most are still living in the animal mode, that is the ego identity has taken over the animal instincts and response mechanisms, and put on top of that the ability to have reasoning and intelligence though it is a lower form, this combined means we have in each individual a very evil piece of machinery in place, both destructive towards the self because of the biological inheritance linked into the animal instincts and also toward his fellow brothers and sisters, because of a need to protect a false identity.

PS I like "SONGS" of God, sounds good though I know it was a